Cloning

[ChaosTheory]

Okay I want to know you?re thoughts on cloning. I, myself personally am greatly against it. You could be born knowing you were the clone of you brother or sister, then you?d feel the need to live up to different expectations. Imagine this if you will: we?re back in the 1940?s during the holocaust. Now imagine if Hitler had the power to clone people or animals. That?s a scary thought now isn?t it? Now imagine growing up with your parents knowing that maybe there not your parents after all. Okay your turn give me your reasoning?s on if or if not your against it.

[Denial]

You could be born knowing you were the clone of you brother or sister, then you?d feel the need to live up to different expectations.
I don't really see this as an important issue.


Imagine this if you will: we?re back in the 1940?s during the holocaust. Now imagine if Hitler had the power to clone people or animals. That?s a scary thought now isn?t it?
I don't quite know what you're getting at here, what do you mean?


Now imagine growing up with your parents knowing that maybe there not your parents after all. Okay your turn give me your reasoning?s on if or if not your against it.
Yeah that would suck.. but it's the same way with a good deal of adoptions.

[ChaosTheory]

On the subject of my second quote there, if Hitler had the power to clone during the holocaust he could easily have cloned himself and we'd still be having world war 2. On the third post yes it is that way with adoptions I know. Think of it in a way like you grow up knowing who one of your parents is but not sure about the other because you happen to look exactly like them. That would be very creepy.

[HolyOrangeDoom]

I think the idea of human cloning is very odd and somewhat disturbing, but I'm not really sure that it's an issue yet either. I'm not even sure we can clone humans yet. Of course, if would likely be dangerous to try, as early clones would probably have little chance of surviving, like early cloned animals did.

This brings up another question: do you believe in tinkering with genes in general? For example, would you eat bio-engineered vegetables or fruit? (I probably would, but it would be odd.) Would you accept messing with a gene if it might prevent cancer or AIDS?

[Inactive Cargo]

It's teleportation you have to worry about, because at the other end it's 1:1 copy, but it's not the original you.

Human cloning is fine because it's just another human, who won't have the same memories as you and will only be identical to you genetically. It's like having an identical twin, same DNA, but looking slightly different.

[ChaosTheory]

I agree with messing around with the genees of cells and other things. Yet somehow making an exact copy of yourself still seems wrong to me. Oh by-the-way I read a new's article saying that Japan has already made a human clone.

[Raiden513]

yea, cloning isnt right, i would be a little pissed if someone cloned me or my pets... i'd probally snap and hunt the motha fucker down

[KrazyKain]

Personally i think cloning is wrong. anyone see "the island"? that movie shows how clones would still be people, they would have feelings and thoughts, and everything, but at the same time they WONT be people.. i woulnt be able to live on if i knew that i was just a clone, a copy of someone else, i take pride in my individuality, and if people started cloning each other, there will be less individuality then there is now

[Inactive Cargo]

Clones aren't 1:1. They're 1:1 genetically, but they're still different. Take a look at identical twins, you can tell them apart. They have the same DNA, different looks and personality.

[1nf3n0]

exactly^ your identity is made by the people your brought up in. your identity cannot be cloned or doubled, ever heard of the play blood brothers?? 2 boys(twins) seperated lead diffrent lives posh and rich/poor and slum

both were copletly diffrent

[Mad_Monkey]

=) i hope they start cloning soon........

so some day maybe i can have an army of me and controll the world


muahhahahahah

[HolyOrangeDoom]

Not that I don't completely agree with you, Mad_Monkey, but this is supposed to be a "SERiOUS" discussion. Come on.

[Mr.Badguy]

I hope some day they can clone people, then I will get myself a new set of lungs.

[ChaosTheory]

Scientist's are actually devising a way to grow organs without growing clones I think this is alot better than actual cloning, Because then your not killing someone for their organs.

[ChaosTheory]

This is a serious discussion and your predjuidice is really not welcome.

[Denial]

It's teleportation you have to worry about, because at the other end it's 1:1 copy, but it's not the original you..

I echo this sentiment. *shudder*

[ChaosTheory]

It is a good point isnt it.

[Mr.Badguy]

This is a serious discussion and your predjuidice is really not welcome.

Whos predjudice is that?

EDIT:
People
Okay whats with all these people who are predjudice against "Emo" kids? I mean i go somewhere and post a serious discussion on cloning and all of a sudden i get:
1.) I hate Emos.

2.) If the clones will build the goverment then fine.

3.) If the clones Killed the emos I would be fine.
Now i beileve that this is just completely stupid because this person probably dosnet even know the meaning of Emo.
So if someone will plz explain this predjudice to me.

LOLZ! Yeh stop the emo bashin guys thar be emos about these ere lands.

[Mad_Monkey]

Not that I don't completely agree with you, Mad_Monkey, but this is supposed to be a "SERiOUS" discussion. Come on.


i am bein serious :confused:

[baklava]

Whos predjudice is that?


Ym3x is being a general asshat of himself, you'd think that after deleting his post for the third time he'd get the message.

[HolyOrangeGlory]

Most people have already expressed my sentiments about cloning, but I might as well say em anyway.

Let me make this easy. If we associate cloning with Mechwarriors, then cloning would essentially be making a copy of the same Mechwarrior. The difference between the mechs, however, is the pilot behind them.

As for the Hitler thing, if he had cloned himself, I doubt he would have been able to raise Hitler Jr. up the same way he was brought up.

I think that at the very least, we should ascertain a sucessful low level of cloning for agricultural purposes. But lets not kid around here folks, everyone knows that if such a technology arises, and it most likely will, the military will want their hands on it.

That sort of event would be abuse of cloning. Not only are there moral sins involved, but think of the things a faction could do with a bunch of fearless warriors? Think back to 9/11. Take those terrorists, than multiply them by the thousands. That's right, thousands of fearless soldiers that have been raised to not fear death, and expect a reward for what they did. That's not all, though.

Cloned beings are like children, they'll believe whatever you tell them, unless they've been given some genetic memory. The amount of genetic memory we recieve isn't enough to effect us that much anyway, so I figure that won't make them any less gullible. So why is this bad, you ask? Because, the most dangerous army in the world is the one that has nothing to lose.

I'm not saying cloning is bad, but their are number of bad things behind it, just like every other kind of technology. The only difference this time is if humanity will have enough moral sense to not misuse it.

[ChaosTheory]

Wow you really have strong thoughts of the subject. Nice job.

[HolyOrangeGlory]

Thank you.

[1koni1]

first of all, cloning does not, despite the steriotype, (excuse my spelling) create an exact clone. in fact, cloning can also be a good thing. extinct animals, such as the tasmanian tiger could be brought back. Unless they manage to find out exactly how the mind works, there is no chance that a hitler clone would, will, or ever work, as the mind is very complex and a copy would have no realworld experiance. I suggest reading the thoughts of spinoza (google it) for more of what I'm trying to get at. Not only that, but cloning is very expensive and hard work. it took scientists several years to clone a simple mammal, think of how much time it would take to make a human being, a very complicated mammal. therefore, cloning today is not advanced enough to creat armys of humans bent on destroying the world.

[ChaosTheory]

I see your point and agree on somethings, yet on others i still cant find a way to agree with it. Remember brainwashing here thats where the hitler thing was going lol.

[1koni1]

Brainwashing, though a possibility, is overshadowed by the fact that clones take longer to mature, and die faster. It would be a lot more simple just to brainwash non-clones than to spend the time making clones and raising them. that coupled with the fact that clones still need natural mothers to survive, makes cloning unlikely for and doomsday scenario.

[ChaosTheory]

Yes but there are People like hitler who would be willing to raise children to use in wars and brainwash them. I should go google brainwashing.

[1koni1]

Not really my point. I'm trying to say that people like Hitler would most likely not bother with cloning, as they can easily use naturaly born people to fight. They would most likely raise children for wars without bothering with cloning.

[1nf3n0]

so, were all talking about the future right?? whole person clones=cc(carbon copy)
but what about stem cell research!! that has played a big role in society!

hitler i hear you say??
the sig says it all!

[EmeraldFalcon89]

Personally, I should find it weird, but I don't. I mean, if I was cloned, there'd be another me. And I think we all know that that'd just own.

[chuckado]

i think that cloning is not a good idea because it make it so that you dont have an excat self idenity because you look just like someone else.

[1nf3n0]

^you dont look like them they look like you.
plus they could be taller thinner it all depends on the upbringing
they could be thick if there brain is not exercised at a young age it would not be like you at all!

[Typo_the_Lover]

I'm all for it. Remember the game Brute Force for the X-Box back when it first came out? Our how about Halo even? Shit like that could happen, hell, Star Wars Episode II. We could clone people and breed them for the perfect fighting machines, and it wouldnt be much of a big loss either because when one falls down, three more get up.

[1nf3n0]

but thats inhumane!!! they would have thought procceses like you and me. they would be humans yet you would indoctranise them and send them off!! would you beat them aswell! or starve them or do live experiments on them? maybe open one up while ITS alive!!

[Scotty]

Imagine this if you will: we?re back in the 1940?s during the holocaust. Now imagine if Hitler had the power to clone people or animals.

1. that didn't happen so don't even act like it could of
2. are you suggesting a clone war?

[Typo_the_Lover]

but thats inhumane!!! they would have thought procceses like you and me. they would be humans yet you would indoctranise them and send them off!! would you beat them aswell! or starve them or do live experiments on them? maybe open one up while ITS alive!!


Actually, yes I would. They would just be a liability, when one falls you could make another. They could be used for experimentation to find out the cures to certain diseases, and like I said, for war. As cold and heartless as it sounds, were sacrificing the weak to salvage the strong.

[Napalm]

If I had a clone, I would totally fuck myself.

[Darkraptor]

The problem with Hitler cloning himself, is that yes he could brash wash his clone into doing what he wanted him do to, but the problem is that Hitler had a masterminded plan and that changed throughout the war, until he realized his plan didn?t work and went crazy trying to make it work. Hitler could not teach the way he thought to his clone.

Although because they come from the same DNA strain they would have very similar thoughts, but not exactly. Also the problem with cloning is that the clone would have to know that he or she is not a clone because this is what would happen: Because of the DNA strain already as a certain wave, that clone would basically think almost the same to its host. If that clone found out that it was a clone it would undoubted disturb the way the clone views the world because remember, no matter what you do to a human, they are still a human.

So even if you sucked out all the emotion and thought of the clone, he/she is still human and will eventually break down and slowly go crazy, and when the clone goes crazy the brain wave would change and it would most likely be unrepairable damage.

If the clone found out he/she was a clone randomly in his/her life, (s)he would go crazy in a matter of weeks.

There are also many other factors, clones have smaller life spans also. Clones would be too hard to keep under control and it would be alot easier to make robotic soldiers than clone soldiers.

[1nf3n0]

^so true

[Typo_the_Lover]

Forget Hitler, cloning is in the future, not in the past.

[Raiden513]

If I had a clone, I would totally fuck myself.


That is a little disturbing....

[Typo_the_Lover]

Clones would be too hard to keep under control and it would be alot easier to make robotic soldiers than clone soldiers.

I agree that they may be hard to keep under control, but wtf is up with robots?

[System_Zero]

The problem I see is the only real facts people have about clones is all loosely based on sci-fi. Identical twins are technically clones and are indeed human. They're born as infants like everyone else and have to mature before they can even walk.

That means even if Hitler wanted a clone, he'd be in kindergarten by the end of WWII. So having a clone army wouldn't be very efficient since you'd have an army of kids for the next 18 or so years before they're of any use and genetically modifying them would be kind of redundant and a waste of resources.

[The muffin man]

Very true, but most likely we would inject artificial HGH or HGF-1 or 2 to make the clones grow abnormally fast. Their minds, however, would not develop that fast, so it would be easy to control the clones.

[System_Zero]

If you're familiar with Progeria, then you'd know the body can't cope with rapid aging. Clones have also been known to exhibit rapid aging similar to Progeria in that the clones body tries to catch up to the same biological age as the donated cells.

[Darkraptor]

I agree that they may be hard to keep under control, but wtf is up with robots?

we already have them, robotic soldier, like mini tanks. They are completely controled by humans, like a video game. So we dont have to worry about them turning on us or anything. Imagen an army run by gamers, that would be sweet. And actually its starting to be come true, we already have some robotic soldiers in iraq right now. Maybe they will become more popular one day.

[Ram!rez]

Robots will take the place of most humans in the future and then they might just take us over when that happens. Clones can be used to do dangerous things that most humans would get killed doing.

[cobweb]

uhm, clones would actually be humans.. theyd be exactly the same as us.. they wouldn't be like.. robots or anything.

personally i wouldn't mind having a clone. And i dont think that theyd be exactly the same as the original person because they'd have a different mind. Though this is more based on what one thinks the mind is and how closely its linked to the brain, as long as its not the same exact thing as the brain, these people wouldnt have the same thoughts and, would be completely different individuals besides their appearances and maybe some personality quirks. Even if they would be raised in the same environment, they would probably still do different things with their lives. Having a clone wouldn't make a persons existence any less important, it would just sort of be like having a twin.

[Napalm]

We already have too many people on this planet. Plus cloning would give way to the corrupt, and the greedy. They'll be able to clone themselves and continue their reign of ...whatever they're doing.

[System_Zero]

As rapidly aging toddlers...

[Napalm]

Who said you can't clone a person and he'd come out full grown and everything?

[MasterGlitch]

I'm going to pose a question, just to shake things up a bit.

would the clone of a person have a soul?

Discuss.


I think that idea alone brings an interesting idea to this whole thing. If clones do not have souls, then why not make some clones for experiments? Maybe we could clone people so that if they ever needed blood or an organ or something, they'd always have an available matching donor. That could save a lot of lives.

[The muffin man]

'Soul' as in consciousness? Yes. 'Soul' as in what goes to heaven or hell? Stop deluding yourselves. You're insane. Never bring religion into science. They don't mix. It's like writing a history report using a fictional book as a resource.

[cobweb]

i think a clone would most definitely have a soul or mind. however our mind works i doubt only one mind can exist for a set of DNA. It is the same way two identical brains can both exist, because even though the mind is not the brain, it is somewhat linked to it. Also, im not sure if identical twins have the same DNA.. (do they?) but if they do, then theyre both something like clones and still both have minds

[MasterGlitch]

'Soul' as in consciousness? Yes. 'Soul' as in what goes to heaven or hell? Stop deluding yourselves. You're insane. Never bring religion into science. They don't mix. It's like writing a history report using a fictional book as a resource.

As I said:

...just to shake things up a bit.

Just presenting an idea, man. No need to get bent out of shape. Who says that things like cloning deal only with science? There are a lot of moral issues that are raised, and what's wrong with bringing in some philosophy along with it? It doesn't have to be 100% science in order to be serious or in order to be dealing with the issues of cloning.

[MasterGlitch]

i think a clone would most definitely have a soul or mind. however our mind works i doubt only one mind can exist for a set of DNA. It is the same way two identical brains can both exist, because even though the mind is not the brain, it is somewhat linked to it. Also, im not sure if identical twins have the same DNA.. (do they?) but if they do, then theyre both something like clones and still both have minds

Identical twins do have the same DNA. Twins are made by the fertilized egg cell splitting in two during development. Thus, the identical twins resulting both share the same set of DNA.

[System_Zero]

Who said you can't clone a person and he'd come out full grown and everything?

Current cloning techniques, we're only able to produce clones through live birth as infants. And after the clone baby is born, the body's cells will try to catch up the age of the original cells. However like with Progeria, the human body can't cope with rapid aging and the body fails and dies after a decade.

And a soul is nothing but a collection of memories that motivates and governs an individual. If a person has no memories, they have in a scene loose their soul.

[KrazyKain]

And a soul is nothing but a collection of memories that motivates and governs an individual. If a person has no memories, they have in a scene loose their soul.

i am an athiest yet i always used the term 'soul'.. that is an interesting way of putting it

[MasterGlitch]

Current cloning techniques, we're only able to produce clones through live birth as infants. And after the clone baby is born, the body's cells will try to catch up the age of the original cells. However like with Progeria, the human body can't cope with rapid aging and the body fails and dies after a decade.

I just thought of something when I read that. What if we cloned infants? Wouldn't it work then?

And if it could work then, as I mentioned before, we could clone people at birth and use the clones as perfect donors. Need blood or an organ? No problem finding a donor when you have an exact duplicate of yourself.
Clones could prove very useful to medical sciences, in more than just that way.

[Orbixx]

Cloning is just wrong. Unless you clone me, then that's fine.

[System_Zero]

I just thought of something when I read that. What if we cloned infants? Wouldn't it work then?

And if it could work then, as I mentioned before, we could clone people at birth and use the clones as perfect donors. Need blood or an organ? No problem finding a donor when you have an exact duplicate of yourself.
Clones could prove very useful to medical sciences, in more than just that way.

They'd only be 9 mounts apart. But it'd cost to much to keep your clone alive for so long or mimic physical conditions of the original donors . With things like stem cell plus cloning it'd be easier to clone the organ than to raise a clone as a organ donor.

[Napalm]

Current cloning techniques, we're only able to produce clones through live birth as infants. And after the clone baby is born, the body's cells will try to catch up the age of the original cells.
You know in 1930, space travel was science fiction. So the posibility of cloning full grown humans is still viable.

[System_Zero]

Space travel still technically is science fiction as we humans have never left Earth's Orbit (the Moon still counts as Earth's orbit as it is orbiting Earth).

Star Wars used clones in Episode 2, but even they raised them from infants. Sure they where genetically modified to age twice as fast but it would still took 10 years to have a fully mature clone.

With our current technology it isn't the case because we still don't a grasp of the cellular mitosis that brakes down our cells during ageing. If we can find a way to control it, not only can we age clones or cure Progeria, but in a scene we also would find the "cure" for ageing.

[KrazyKain]

Space travel still technically is science fiction as we humans have never left Earth's Orbit (the Moon still counts as Earth's orbit as it is orbiting Earth).

fair enough, deep sea exploration used to be science fiction (20000leagues under the sea)

[MasterGlitch]

Going to the moon was also science fiction at one time. In the late 1800s, author Jules Verne wrote a book about people going to the moon and people thought that was a way far-fetched idea, but now we've actually done it.
I forget what the book was called, though...

[The muffin man]

Space travel is inevitable. Cryogenic freezing, which used to be science fiction, has now become a reality. It's only matter of time before we put this together with fusion reactors to make possible prolonged sojourns to other systems.

[cobweb]

With our current technology it isn't the case because we still don't a grasp of the cellular mitosis that brakes down our cells during ageing. If we can find a way to control it, not only can we age clones or cure Progeria, but in a scene we also would find the "cure" for ageing.

it would be amazing if the quest for sucessful cloning would lead to finding a cure for aging in general.

[The muffin man]

With our current technology it isn't the case because we still don't a grasp of the cellular mitosis that brakes down our cells during ageing. If we can find a way to control it, not only can we age clones or cure Progeria, but in a scene we also would find the "cure" for ageing.

LOLOLOLOLOOL!
(prepare to be owned)
Please stop pretending that you know what you are talking about unless you really do.

1) Mitosis=asexual diploid cellular division.
2) I can tell you anything you'll ever want to know about it.
3) Mitochondrial decay isn't the main problem, recently, sirtain proteins (Sirt1-6) have been linked to genial decay and premature aging. This affects the stem cells that regenerate lost tissue. Without these, the body would die in a matter of weeks or months.

[System_Zero]

The most common form of Progeria is caused by a mutation in the gene called LMNA (pronounced, lamin - a). The LMNA gene produces the Lamina protein, which is the structural scaffolding that holds the nucleus of a cell together. Researchers believe that the defective LMNA protein makes the nucleus unstable. That cellular instability leads to the process of premature aging in Progeria.

In short what would happen to a fast aging clone would be the same as a child born with Progeria and die in their early teens. It's a genetic defect that causes a child to mature rapidly at a cellular level.


Another one is an apparently inbuilt limit on the number of times a cell can divide (mitosis). This so-called Hayflick limit (of the order of 50 divisions) is well beyond the one that is reached during normal life, and should thus not be interpreted as a preprogrammed death. The hypothesis is that it functions to limit the risks for the development of cancer or tumors (characterized by unrestricted reproduction of cancerous cells). The mechanism seems to be that during each splitting of a cell, the chromosomes are copied incompletely, with a small stretch of DNA on the outer extremum being cut off during the split. The outer stretches of DNA (telomeres) for a young cell are not functional, so that losing them does not impair function. But after a sufficient number of divisions, the process would start to cut off functional DNA, thus making it impossible for the cell to survive. The cutting off does not happen during cell divisions (meiosis) producing sex cells (sperm or egg cells).

http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/EVOLAGE.html


Space travel is inevitable. Cryogenic freezing, which used to be science fiction, has now become a reality. It's only matter of time before we put this together with fusion reactors to make possible prolonged sojourns to other systems.

Current Cryogenic freezing techniques are limited only to the dead. The water in our blood crystallizes into sharp shards that puncture and damage cells. On top of that the body would need to be in a hibernated state and stored in temperatures just above freezing. There are ways of keeping the water from becoming jagaded when it crystallizes causesing minimal damage to the cellular structure but it's only been done with lab rats but hasn't been applied to humans yet.

[The muffin man]

Current Cryogenic freezing techniques are limited only to the dead. The water in our blood crystallizes into sharp shards that puncture and damage cells. On top of that the body would need to be in a hibernated state and stored in temperatures just above freezing. There are ways of keeping the water from becoming jagaded when it crystallizes causesing minimal damage to the cellular structure but it's only been done with lab rats but hasn't been applied to humans yet.

What I meant. Thank you.


Although normal cells may or may not have a limit to the number of times they may undergo mitosis (and I'm sure even smaller a limit on meiosis), stem cells may divide indefinitely, this we are sure. So, why doesn't the body live on forever, regenerating lost cells? Simple, proteins coded within the DNA of stem cells -a special offset of DNA that does not replicate and segregates indepedantly- deteriorate the nucleoli, disrupting the production of rRNA, helicase, RNA transcriptase, and DNA replicase. This increases the amount of time and energy a cell must spend in interphase and prophase, eventually leading to an inert stem cell.

[cobweb]

whenever you guys start talking these cell things, i get very lost...
but i do understand like 25% of it ^^

[ChaosTheory]

Wow I know this is completely off topic but you guys really know your shit. Geez muffin man you've been spending way to much time in biology.

[cobweb]

i know its pretty amazing how much they know, and im totally owned by muffin man as hes younger than me but about twice as smart...

[AmyS]

yeah, the cell stuff is over my head, but cloning has a lot to do with the study and scientific advancements in stem cell research, so just a tidbit of info. Its been found that some stem cells of a child will remain in the mother for up to 40 years after birth. Sadly I cannot find a link to the findings, but if its true, then the controversy over using fetus' stem cells could be completely bypassed in favor of these cells residing in the mothers.