Torture

[Destagow]

http://www.henrygop.com/Republican%20Elephant.jpg

SUPPORT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY!





Now ssrly: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0524072torture1.html
How can anyone support this trash?
Warning: Disturbing images.

[Evonus]

http://www.henrygop.com/Republican%20Elephant.jpg

SUPPORT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY!


I do support the republican party with their stance on torture.





Now ssrly: http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0524072torture1.html
How can anyone support this trash?
Warning: Disturbing images.

Pretty gruesome, although not a lot of actual information.

[Shins]

"Ends justify the means" is how you can support it. Its up to each person to decide whether thats a viable avenue for justification.

[Evonus]

"Ends justify the means" is how you can support it. Its up to each person to decide whether thats a viable avenue for justification.

It's not just that. It's the disregard for the feelings of someone who would've blown you up had they not been caught. I personally do not always believe the ends justify the means, but at the same time, I could care less about the people the U.S. government is torturing. They're criminals, and don't deserve the same considerations as everyone else.

[Zerth]

I could care less about the people the U.S. government is torturing. They're criminals, and don't deserve the same considerations as everyone else.
Would you think the same way if someone invaded your Country tried to tell you whats what .. then you attack them.. then they torture you for being a criminal?:think::think::think:

[Pattax]

Would you think the same way if someone invaded your Country tried to tell you whats what .. then you attack them.. then they torture you for being a criminal?:think::think::think:

Thats not exactly how it happens... or what happens for that matter.

[Zerth]

Thats not exactly how it happens... or what happens for that matter.

I know, but some torture is on terrorists by America. the Terrorists sometimes/usually(not always-_-) do what they do because of Americas constant 'butting ins' and trying to tell them how to do things.Then they get tortured for fighting back.

[Pattax]

I know, but some torture is on terrorists by America. the Terrorists usually do what they do because of Americas constant 'butting ins' and trying to tell them how to do things.Then they get tortured for fighting back.

Yet again, thrown way out of proportion. Terrorists aren't the spawn of American's telling them how to live at all.

[Destagow]

It's not just that. It's the disregard for the feelings of someone who would've blown you up had they not been caught. I personally do not always believe the ends justify the means, but at the same time, I could care less about the people the U.S. government is torturing. They're criminals, and don't deserve the same considerations as everyone else.

Wow, fuck you. I suppose the Al Qaeda thinks that we are criminals too. From their pov we don't deserve the same considerations. Everyone deserves the basic human rights and then some.

[Evonus]

Everyone deserves the basic human rights and then some.

No they don't, and stop making groundless statements.

[Slevin57]

I personally would not prefer torture as a means of information gathering. If I were president 20% of the Military budget would be invested in Intelligence gathering. But, with the current state of affairs I do support the use of terrorism on terrorist suspects. They have ample opportunities to divulge the information voluntarily.

Unfortunately torture, "aggressive coercion" is an effective means of gleaning information from a suspected terrorist. They are a physical people. The things they do are real and concrete. It is only logical that the only way they will expel information is by physical means.

We do not have time to play mind games to get information.

No one knows for certain what methods the US use, but it is apparent we use far less crude methods than depicted in that video.

I am not defending Al-Queda, but finding one house with these tools does not mean it is done across the organization. They do not operate as a single unit, they operate as many independant units.

[spzattk]

I don't support torture against other countries we're with war at, but terrorists don't have morals.

[Slevin57]

Well of course they have morals. In fact most of them are the same as ours. We just dont' think of it that way because we are on the other side of the coin.

Our extreme religous groups don't need to go out and bomb market squares because they have their countries military inflicting more than enough damage on "the enemy"

[Evonus]

I don't support torture against other countries we're with war at, but terrorists don't have morals.

This is my stance as well. Thank you for making sense.

[Loli]

Oooo, head in vice. Thats a personal favorite of mine.

But you guys do realize that our version of torture is on the mind and not on the body right? I mean theres a difference between putting a bag on someones head that smells like cat pee and making them listen to static for 14 hours and poking someones eye out with a knife.

[Slevin57]

Oooo, head in vice. Thats a personal favorite of mine.

But you guys do realize that our version of torture is on the mind and not on the body right? I mean theres a difference between putting a bag on someones head that smells like cat pee and making them listen to static for 14 hours and poking someones eye out with a knife.

That's what I said :P The only method that's been confirmed that I know of is water boarding. Which is not very fun. It induces the sensation of drowning, usually it only takes once.

[Shins]

terrorists don't have morals.

Person can have different moral concepts from you and still have morals. You can disagree with someone, and you can torture them because of your disagreement. But don't try and turn them into faceless demons to ease your conscience about what you are doing. They're people too, whatever they've done. Humans are fucked up. We're all more than capable of the horrible shit 'terrorist x' does. They are not special.

Anything else is deluding yourself. If you're okay with torture, be okay with torturing human beings.

[Destagow]

Because we must torture these people who have no ethics. Because they have none, we are given the check to do such...


And Evonus, click my signature. I think all humans are humans, can't back up this outrageous claim though. Really, saying that ends nowhere.

[Evonus]

They're people too, whatever they've done. Humans are fucked up. We're all more than capable of the horrible shit 'terrorist x' does. They are not special.

Anything else is deluding yourself. If you're okay with torture, be okay with torturing human beings.

They're not the same type of people. Criminals and the rest of humanity are not equal because of their actions. I'm sorry to tell you, but 200 years ago humanity discovered that giving status by birth was a mistake, which is why feudalism fell. Somehow in the modern day people like "human rights activists" have found a way to regress society hundreds of years by giving every human this magic ability to always be "good underneath" and thus incapable of the death penalty and torture.

Face it some people are just bad and are detrimental to society, and they need to be found and eliminated by any means necessary before they kill the other 99% of the population that would live peacefully.

[Destagow]

As a Humanist I can not see your logic. If you think not everyone is equal, you can. But torturing and killing because of it will make you wrong.

[Comm]

I am not a big fan of torture, but torture can serve its purpose. To a limited extent, when it comes to torture, the safety and well being of the many out weigh the feelings of the few. If getting information out of one person, even by means of mental and physical torture, can say thousands of lives I will support it. I may not like supporting it, but I will.

[Evonus]

As a Humanist I can not see your logic. If you think not everyone is equal, you can. But torturing and killing because of it will make you wrong.

See, but I'm operating on logic, you aren't. Go out into the street, study genetics, conduct a survey, steal children from different families and raise them in your basement. People are not equal or the same. Everyone is different, everyone is an individual, so you can't implement some across the board measure that will work for everyone. Different people need to be treated and dealt with in different ways than others because they are different.

Also, I'd like to point out that wrong depends upon perspective. I'd say from my perspective you are terribly wrong, as well as ignorant, because you don't see the blatantly obvious differences between them.

[Zerth]

I also fail to see how torturing someone is any worse then the crime they've done.. I mean, how does it make the people doing the torturing any different then the tortured?

[Destagow]

See, but I'm operating on logic, you aren't. Go out into the street, study genetics, conduct a survey, steal children from different families and raise them in your basement. People are not equal or the same. Everyone is different, everyone is an individual, so you can't implement some across the board measure that will work for everyone. Different people need to be treated and dealt with in different ways than others because they are different.

Also, I'd like to point out that wrong depends upon perspective. I'd say from my perspective you are terribly wrong, as well as ignorant, because you don't see the blatantly obvious differences between them.

Because prisons don't exist. mirite?
We don't have to torture, just imprison.

[Shins]

We don't have to torture, just imprison.
Imprisonment is a form of torture.

[Destagow]

Imprisonment is a form of torture.

Because human and ethical prisons don't exist. mirite?

/edit: Wait, you may not know that you can be in a non-toture prison. My bad.

[Shins]

No, I mean that the simple act of being imprisoned is itself a form a torture. It can be the most humane, ethically run penitentiary in the world, but it is still a place that, as a prisoner, you are getting locked up in. It is a denial of the basic right of personal freedom.

That qualifies as both mental and physical torture in my book. I also agree with it, in the majority of cases.

[Destagow]

No, I mean that the simple act of being imprisoned is itself a form a torture. It can be the most humane, ethically run penitentiary in the world, but it is still a place that, as a prisoner, you are getting locked up in. It is a denial of the basic right of personal freedom.

That qualifies as both mental and physical torture in my book. I also agree with it, in the majority of cases.

With this anything can qualify as torture. We can also qualify killing innocent babies as the correct thing to do. There is no "ought to" because "ought to" indicates there is a force that it should be molded after, which there is not. We all have to make double standards to prove a point, at lest from other peoples perspective.

[Shins]

With this anything can qualify as torture.

Yup. And anything can be. Torture is qualified by the person being tortured far more than the person looking at what is being performed.


We can also qualify killing innocent babies as the correct thing to do.

You lost me.


There is no "ought to" because "ought to" indicates there is a force that it should be molded after, which there is not.

"Beyond good and evil" is a wonderful sentiment. Bit idealistic though. Even if its true, and I think there's a good chance it is, there are certain majority-held "ought tos" that effectively define a moral standard that we all must follow, or else.


We all have to make double standards to prove a point, at lest from other peoples perspective.

Lost me again.

[the.doctor]

Wow, these images were pretty graphic. Oh wait, no they arent. If you want I can post videos of women in south asia getting stoned to deat. Or men getting beheaded by 12 year olds. From my perspective, these people have no morals. They dont seem to take life as seriously as we do, they take it away at a whim. What the fuck do I care if some yanks beat the shit out of a terrorist if the end result is a safer world.

[Destagow]

Not going to debate this anymore. If you feel its torture is better than any alternative that's your choice.

[Shins]

What the fuck do I care if some yanks beat the shit out of a terrorist if the end result is a safer world.

So then who will police the police?

[Evonus]

I also fail to see how torturing someone is any worse then the crime they've done.. I mean, how does it make the people doing the torturing any different then the tortured?

Because the people doing the torturing have already done something wrong. Their torture is to get information from them so that they can not hurt other people by withholding information.


Because prisons don't exist. mirite?
We don't have to torture, just imprison.

If someone knows something that will bring about the death of others imprisonment won't do it. That information needs to be extracted.


So then who will police the police?

The politicians, who are policed by the population.

[Destagow]

What kind of torture do you support?

[Evonus]

What kind of torture do you support?

Any kind that can get the information from the subject.

[Destagow]

I am God, ruler of the universe, you have failed to take my son as your savior, have fun rotting in hell. You ask now, "How is this fair? This is completely unethical." I respond, "It's my standards of ethics, my standards of lies, my standard of your life. I can do what I want because I have my own view."


All good people torture, Christian voodoo god even does.


/edit: Do you support the toture of US soldiers? They have information that would lead to the deaths of the Al-Qaeda. If not then stfuhypocrite.

[Evonus]

I am God, ruler of the universe, you have failed to take my son as your savior, have fun rotting in hell. You ask now, "How is this fair? This is completely unethical." I respond, "It's my standards of ethics, my standards of lies, my standard of your life. I can do what I want because I have my own view."


All good people torture, Christian voodoo god even does.

I'm an atheist. I don't care what the Christian god does. And I also don't care what "good" people do, because good is a perspective, and I'm sure most people that would be considered good by your standards don't become interrogators to begin with.


/edit: Do you support the toture of US soldiers? They have information that would lead to the deaths of the Al-Qaeda. If not then stfuhypocrite.

I do not support torture of enemy soldiers. I was appalled when the Iraqi soldiers were tortured in U.S. prisons. The soldiers of the United States or any other country for that matter sign up to defend their country. Al-Qaeda is basically the mafia of the middle east. They sign up to manipulate and destroy for their own gain. There's a big difference there.

[Destagow]

Because we did not invade? This was not a problem until the US did some public shit again. Honestly, double standards.

[Evonus]

Because we did not invade? This was not a problem until the US did some public shit again. Honestly, double standards.

Al-Queda has nothing to do with Iraq. They're there now, they weren't under Sadam because they were outlaws under his regime as well. If you're talking about Afghanistan it's because they blew up our buildings. Al-Queda attacked us first, it's not a double standard.

[Shins]

The politicians, who are policed by the population.

If we lived in a world where a picturesque system like that worked, we wouldn't need it to begin with.

Population is mindfucked by the politicians, who are puppets for the corporations. Accountability always breaks down at some point.

[Evonus]

If we lived in a world where a picturesque system like that worked, we wouldn't need it to begin with.

When last I checked the United States never had any police or amy rebellions to speak of.

[Shins]

edit: nevermind, got it.

[Destagow]

When last I checked the United States never had any police or amy rebellions to speak of.

You don't have to be an outspoken rebel to disobey orders.

[Evonus]

You don't have to be an outspoken rebel to disobey orders.

It hasn't resulted in a rebellion, so I'd say it's rather effective. You're always going to have a few bad eggs.

[Dahari]

I'd like to say everyone is good at heart, but some people are just...ugh..