Something a little different!

[IsHatMePanTs]

I've come to the point that I have to choose between working for "the man" (authority, (for those who can't read into things)) or else continue leading my life of quiet rebellion (with less money). Others out there surely made the choice right?! Im hoping you're not all brainwashed. What I'm trying to get at is:

Does anybody here think that civilisation itself is wrong or unnatural? (This requires serious deep thought. I want you to get seriously philosophical.) Is the fact that we have to work feel unnatural to you at any point?

I know I'm going for money, so I'm gonna be working, it makes me feel a little shit but I know it deep down, but it came pretty close.

Appologies for the dodgy punctuation.

[Hacky]

Nope, civilization is a great thing. Unnatural? Of course. Who cares what's done by nature and what isn't. Nature isn't always correct.

[Trainwreck]

Nature is always correct, everything we have is because of nature.

The fact that we can disinguish correct from incorrect is because of nature.

[Phlintlock]

Correct or Incorrect is purely a matter of perspective. Everything is in effect, nature, so anything that could possibly occur is natural, because if we say that it's unnatural if humans have tampered with it, then that makes virtually everything unnatural. Everything that can happen, is possible through nature, we just guide it along, so there is really only a moral line between what is correct/incorrect , right/wrong.

[eyvind]

What flint said, basically.

Humans are produced naturally, and anything we call artificial is then natural in its own right as well, since it was created by humans who are natural. So civilization would then logically be natural too, and hence work.

But logic isnt everything, and natural and artificial are both by defininition quite opposite.

But yes i agree, it doent feel quite right to work to live even moderately well.



(Its strange how as a forumer you subconciosly seem to expect a comprehensiveness in posts, or at least the assumption of one by others.)

[IanAlmighty]

Nope, civilization is a great thing. Unnatural? Of course. Who cares what's done by nature and what isn't. Nature isn't always correct.
Wrong.
Nature is always right- even if not in the benefit of man.

[Hacky]

Wrong.
Nature is always right- even if not in the benefit of man.

If it isn't in my benefit, why should I care about it? Each creature on this earth is designed for self-preservation. Even humanity. We want only to live, and, in general, only care about ourselves. In addition, humans are the most advanced creatures, we rule the world. So, why should nature not bend to our will?

In addition, humans have addopted an "unnatural" ideology to save all other living creatures, and not just themselves. This is clearly not natural, by your definition. So, is the natural think only for yourself "right", or is the unnatural save the world right?

Clearly the unnatural wins it. The world as a whole benefits from it. All creatures, including ourselves do. We unnaturally think to save other animals. And this is right.

[IsHatMePanTs]

Who says we're out to save other creatures? The idea hasn't just been "adopted", I think that idea has been drilled into us from a young age by society. Our behaviour is defined by society. Nobody would be on this forum if we didn't know other people read it (unless we like talking to ourselves). Society defines what is right and wrong, so what if society is wrong? We're killing our planet, nature, as we speak by burning fossil fuels and chopping down trees. Perhaps we are trying to reach too far.

We, as a race, are to easily pacified. We sit and watch tv, chat on forums, play video games etc etc. How many people actually believe that when it comes to election time their vote matters? Would you know if it didn't? We're all living to put more money in other people's pockets. Like the matrix (I hate saying that) we are actually kinda like big batteries. We're used to do things and then we get tossed aside once we cannot perform our function.

I'd have no problem with it if the money helped others, but there are still so many poor people out there which according to our society's beliefs we should be helping but we're not. Theres actually more and more poor people emerging as the world races forward. Sucks to be them I know but shouldn't there be an alternative. Some way of opting out of the rat race, earning money for doing something meaningful. Or is my desire to do something meaningful another result of society's values being reinforced on me at school and at home?

[RyanBennettBass]

humans naturally need order, while some naturally need to rebel

[Trainwreck]

Wichever path you take, it was meant to be that path, so it's the right decision, i suppose

[Napalm]

You know why working would feel unnatural to somebody?
Because they're lazy. The world runs on money, and working is right and not working is wrong. There's nothing philosophical about it, it's just getting up at 8am and working till 3pm so you can feed your starving arse, and maybe go down to the pub and get a pint or two

[Trainwreck]

or you can just make your own whisky, and steal from the salvation army, and feed your own arse that way.

it all comes down to morals. if you're ok with stealing for your income, and it works for you, feel free to get paid that way.

on the bright side, theres no taxes on it, and it's all under the table

[Orbixx]

Wichever path you take, it was meant to be that path, so it's the right decision, i suppose

Nothing is never "meant to be", it just "is". It happens and that is what happens.

I'm sure we've all come across this example before...:

If you walked to school or work or something one day and arrived to find a friend and have a conversation about cheese, would you have had the same conversation if something occured to you on the way, say like you tripped over a slab of pavement or something, I believe this would change whatever you would do afterwards or at least slightly alter it.

Random occurances change consequential actions. Simple a matter of action and reaction. Technically speaking, the "Big Bang" was the initial action, everything after it was a reaction, including me typing this post and you reading this post. Food for thought eh?

[Hacky]

You just roughly explained The Butterfly Effect (The Theory, not the movie). What does this have to do with the topic?

[Darkytehsexydrood]

POV...Point of view.. thats it....however you see is the anwser... thats why (imo) we need more then one person to make a choice....

[Trainwreck]

Nothing is never "meant to be", it just "is". It happens and that is what happens.

I'm sure we've all come across this example before...:

If you walked to school or work or something one day and arrived to find a friend and have a conversation about cheese, would you have had the same conversation if something occured to you on the way, say like you tripped over a slab of pavement or something, I believe this would change whatever you would do afterwards or at least slightly alter it.

Random occurances change consequential actions. Simple a matter of action and reaction. Technically speaking, the "Big Bang" was the initial action, everything after it was a reaction, including me typing this post and you reading this post. Food for thought eh?

it all gets into determinism.

it's all what you believe. if you believe that everything that happens was meant to happen, you're a determinist, if you believe in free will, you believe in what you just posted.

there are more, like fatalism, and free action, but the point is that your view on it isn't right, but it's not wrong, it's just a theory.

so no, i believe if you weren't supposed to hear about cheese, you'd be pre-determined not to, therefore you'd trip on that slab of concrete, but if you were meant to hear it, that slab of concrete would have been noticed.

i'm a fatalist myself, i believe certain things must happen, no matter what you do, but you can choose the way to do it.

[FistFighter]

I don't think there is such a thing as right or wrong. There's just stuff that happens. If you don't like it, tough shit. People can decide what's good or bad depending on what seems to them to benefit the most people, or protect the most living things from harm, or equalize the amount of "happiness" in the world, but in the end right and wrong are simply simplified syntheses of much more complex assumptions and values.

In response to your question, you just have to do whatever you think is best. There's nothing more to ask. Whether you're going to be happy with your decision later depends on circumstances outside your control, so that's all you can do.

[Trainwreck]

we, as humans have created good and evil, thse two words mean nothing to those who have washed themselves of society's morals, and they're usually better people for it, because they don't do somethign because it's good, they do it to help, we just see that, and label is as good.

when god kills things, we see it as bad (if you believe in god) and we say god did a bad thing. but god doesn't know good or bad, he just does what he wishes, and it's good, we've just labeled it as something to help us understand.

[Steve]

God doesn't *do* 'bad things'. Anything God does is justified because he is God and the creator of us. That's if you believe in God.

As for people, basically all it is, is asking questions. Think about it. Why do we assume the sky is the sky and it's blue not green? How do we even really know that the sky IS a sky? We know it's a sky because that's what we've been told.

Everything exists upon the perceptions and beliefs of the individual and the whole. It's how you can call the back of your car a 'trunk', but if you go over to England they might call it a 'boot', and here, well in Canada, a boot goes on your foot. (Poor analogy, but I couldn't think..)

Perhaps I deviate.. but really, our ideas of right and wrong even are not all the same the world over. Some people have no problem with killing for revenge. ie. capital punishment, some people have no problem with rape or abortion. Those are all based on perceived morals, values and beliefs. Or how engaging in cannibalism is the largest taboo currently associated with Western civilization human nature. (Even more so than the act of killing another person)

Basically.. if you think nature is here to serve us, then she is. But if you think perhaps, you believe in Gaia, that we're killing her, wasting up her resources.. then we are.

Everything is based on beliefs. I ramble so..

[Slevin57]

But we can never be sure if we have interpreted Nature correctly or incorrectly.

I believe Civilization is very necessary. Without civilization we would not have anything we have today, in fact we would probably all be dead. Bear in mind 90% of the species that have EVER lived on Earth, are gone today. Yesterday 25 species went extinct. The same hold's true for today.

Most philosophers will tell you that since existence the universe has moved from chaos to Order. Within chaos there is no order, there is no meaning, there is no existence. Civilization, is just another part of order.

[Steve]

Except for that fact that humans are complete savages. I think that bit of our nature is the only reason we've evolved so far.. because we thirst for more and more of whatever we had.

We're going to civilize ourselves to death.

[Napalm]

Well I hate to disagree, but I do.

We're curious, not savages. While we do wage war, it's within every animal to fight. They fight for food and territory, we fight for food and territory. Our ultimate in nature is to learn and to keep on learning. You're right when you say that we thirst for more, but it's not that bad :P

[Steve]

We've done things that aren't savage at all.. most beautiful things, but I think that we're abusing our Earth and what's on it. The Earth will rectify that eventually though, we've surpassed the expected k-line and soon Earth will have to do something to reinstate balance and order. >_>

[Napalm]

Even with our current destruction of the earth, it'll take millions of years to do actually damage the earth. But I won't be here then, so it's none of my concern. Although I do like your choice of words, i.e. beautiful. Because I would have to agree that we've done some beautiful things.

[Steve]

Yeah. I'm all for saving the environment, yet the seeming futility of it all is what makes me refrain from hugging trees. I know that even if I work for something and if by some miracle it actually happened, I'd never be around to see the end results. So, I'll say we're stupid and doing crap things, but that really doesn't do much anyway.. and beautiful ie. pix of man-made things.

[Napalm]

Oh I definitely know what you mean. :P

[Element]

I've only read the first post, but basically, FUCK THE MAN.

[Evonus]

People rebel against society, the current system, money, ect ect, but what they don't realize is that no matter what system you are under, whether it's anarchy, nomadic hunter gathering, or a world run by computers and made of chrome, we all at some point have to work to live. Everyone and everything does. There is no escaping it. The world has limited resources, so we all have to fight for those, it is the way of nature, whether we live in tree branches or houses it is the absolute truth. We have to fight/work for survival.

[Wo1ke]

Ooookay. Weather society is natural depends on your definition of natural/nature. SO, what is it? If it's the unselfconsious earth, then yes it's unnatural, if conciosness is part of nature, then it is natural to a dergree. If it's another definition, is another answer. Before asking your question, provide an answer.

:banana:

[Confero]

Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed. I think that's a good point in this discussion.