I've a genuine Christianity question to ask.

[Winterherz]

What I'd like to know is that if the Christian God is all knowing, all loving, always present, and all powerful, then why did he create anything in the first place? For he should've known that man would commit sin, right? And when does the Bible say man commited the first sin? I believe it was like hours God made man. Nice, great job.

So what's the point of creating billions and billions of people to have most of them die like dogs? That doesn't sound like an all loving God to me. I know that the Christian God can't intervene for that would take away man's free will, but I'm not asking why God doesn't stop the suffering.

[KillHour]

According to the Bible, all the suffering will eventually end, and we'll all get to be in the garden of eden again. Eve just had to be an asshat and learn the difference between good and evil, and start questioning God.

[Winterherz]

According to the Bible, all the suffering will eventually end, and we'll all get to be in the garden of eden again. Eve just had to be an asshat and learn the difference between good and evil, and start questioning God.

So your God thought it was fine to create man knowing Eve would sin, thus causing billions of humans to die in such ways hardly any of us can imagine. Thanks, that explains a lot.

[KillHour]

Yea, he knew Eve would sin, and he could have not given us free will, and forced her not to. But like any good parent, he figured he would give us a chance anyways, and let us learn on our own (and hope that against all odds we actually surprise him and do the right thing).

[Denial]

Yea, he knew Eve would sin, and he could have not given us free will, and forced her not to. But like any good parent, he figured he would give us a chance anyways, and let us learn on our own (and hope that against all odds we actually surprise him and do the right thing).

That would imply that God is not all-knowing.

Although having been christian most of my life, I don't know what their answer would be to this; it was never addressed.

[KillHour]

He is, kind of like when you KNOW your kid is lying to you, but you still let him do it, because it's better for you to trust him and let him figure it out on his own.

[Denial]

He is, kind of like when you KNOW your kid is lying to you, but you still let him do it, because it's better for you to trust him and let him figure it out on his own.

Alright, then assuming God knew and approved of everything that would happen, why did he create anything in the first place? What does he have to gain by letting what he already knows would happen happen?

Very interesting.

[Winterherz]

Yea, he knew Eve would sin, and he could have not given us free will, and forced her not to. But like any good parent, he figured he would give us a chance anyways, and let us learn on our own (and hope that against all odds we actually surprise him and do the right thing).

These words are contradicting. He knew Eve would sin, yet he hoped that she wouldn't? Can you please clear this up? The kid metaphor doesn't do it for me. We, as humans know our children will suffer and many of us choose not to have children for that very reason. To procreate is a very basic instinct so why did God make anything if he knew the mass suffering his creations would cause?

[KillHour]

Because in the end, things are better than they ever were. Read the end of Revelation.


Rev 21: Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had disappeared. And the sea was also gone. And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down form God out of heaven like a beautiful bride prepared for her husband.
I heard a loud shout from the throne, saying "Look, the home of God is now among his people! He will live with them, and they will be his people. God himself will be with them. He will remove all of their sorrows, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. For the old world and its evils are gone forever"....

And besides that, wouldn't you rather be here, even with all the horrible stuff that goes on, than not exist at all? It's worth it just to be here IMHO.

[Zandrel]

Most people misinterpret the book of revelation.

The book of revelation in the bible is not a prediction of things to come, but in fact a prediction of things that already happened. All the passages are symbolic and refer to the fall of Rome and the end of oppression to Christians of that time by Roman Catholics.

Dont think i'm some uber christian or anything i just know what i'm talking about.

[KillHour]

You are right about one thing: The book of revelation is about things that have already happened... Yet it does not refer to the fall of Rome and their "oppression" to Christians. In fact, Rome adopted Christianity as its official religion far before its collapse.

The book of revelation is about a vision that came to John the apostle in a dream. The "book" is a series of letters written to the seven major churches in Asia. This is the part that already happened, hence why it is written in the past tense. However, these are visions of things still to come. So while the vision happened, the actual events have not.

[Jager]

What I'd like to know is that if the Christian God is all knowing, all loving, always present, and all powerful, then why did he create anything in the first place? For he should've known that man would commit sin, right? And when does the Bible say man commited the first sin? I believe it was like hours God made man. Nice, great job.

So what's the point of creating billions and billions of people to have most of them die like dogs? That doesn't sound like an all loving God to me. I know that the Christian God can't intervene for that would take away man's free will, but I'm not asking why God doesn't stop the suffering.
It's already been asked. In fact, it's what I use to piss of fundamentalists and bible bangers. God, if he exists, created evil.

[KillHour]

Yes of course. In order for there to be good, there has to be evil. So God needed to create evil for there to be good in the world.

[Zandrel]

You are right about one thing: The book of revelation is about things that have already happened... Yet it does not refer to the fall of Rome and their "oppression" to Christians. In fact, Rome adopted Christianity as its official religion far before its collapse.

The book of revelation is about a vision that came to John the apostle in a dream. The "book" is a series of letters written to the seven major churches in Asia. This is the part that already happened, hence why it is written in the past tense. However, these are visions of things still to come. So while the vision happened, the actual events have not.

My veiw is both more logical and easier to state. The actual events will not happen because according to the bible god already has his kingdom in heaven. They are sybolic, not literal in any way, shape or form.

[Winterherz]

Yes of course. In order for there to be good, there has to be evil. So God needed to create evil for there to be good in the world.

Then how is he all-loving? In my perfect little kingdom I would undoubtedly give my little creations free will, and give them obstacles and such. But, I would never create such unimaginable evil as your God did.

Jager said:


It's already been asked. In fact, it's what I use to piss of fundamentalists and bible bangers. God, if he exists, created evil.

Do you get any inteligent answers? What's their best defense?

[Hacky]

If God created evil then he is not pure, also he is not "All loving".

To create something that will cause much death and destruction is not to love his people.

[KillHour]

I'm quite a literalist :P
but I guess as long as we follow the basic rules, I'm sure we'll both be fine

[Avarik]

However, if all was good and happy, and sin and evil never existed, is there truly love?

If loving is the only thing we are capable of, is it true love?

No. If humans are presented with a choice, either to stray from their maker or choose to love and worship him, that is a big choice. That is an actual feeling.

I suppose in the end though it just looks like we're dolls in God's house, ants under His microscope.

[KillHour]

You don't only have to love good things you know... In fact, the most important lesson in the Bible is to learn to love everything no matter how good or evil.

[Hacky]

Too bad 1 in 1000 Christians accept that the BIble says to love everybody no matter what their sin.

[Avarik]

Maybe I gave a bad analogy.

What I'm trying to say, if the God of this universe, whomever that may be, only allowed humans to feel one way, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The fact that we have free will and do decide what we're going to follow to the end shows us that God isn't a complete attention whore.

[Winterherz]

Maybe I gave a bad analogy.

What I'm trying to say, if the God of this universe, whomever that may be, only allowed humans to feel one way, we wouldn't be having this discussion. The fact that we have free will and do decide what we're going to follow to the end shows us that God isn't a complete attention whore.

This is irrelevant to the original question.

[Avarik]

This is irrelevant to the original question.

Didn't even read the first post. I just jumped down to Hacky's.
LololOL

EDIT: ah ok, why did God create sin? Why did he create a world he knew would fall to sin? Don't ask me.

[Winterherz]

If God created evil then he is not pure, also he is not "All loving".

To create something that will cause much death and destruction is not to love his people.

This is what I think. Humans can live normally without evil in their lives, and in fact, be more productive. Isn't life a whole lot better when you don't have Lucifer giving you wedgies?

[Winterherz]

Didn't even read the first post. I just jumped down to Hacky's.
LololOL

Congrats on being a waste of space.

[Avarik]

Don't turn this into a flame you dickhead. I've been replying legitimately the best I can.

[Denial]

Off topic =/= worthless

This is a concept that many here lack comprehension of.

[low tech]

I'm going to put this in as simple words for you Livewire guys as possible.

Yes, God created evil. For the universe to retain or even achieve equilibrium, the equation must be balanced. God, who is the paradigm of good, equals 1. Evil, the antithesis and inveersion of all that represents good, is -1.

1+(-1)= 0

Do you see how that equation works out? Complex math isn't the only answer to this predicament. In a utopian universe, like Avarik said, we wouldn't be having this discussion. This is all of the more reason to follow Christianity and to escape the darkness.

EDIT: Ok, so maybe the words weren't as elementary as I had planned.

[Denial]

The logical coherency level in this thread can be expressed with the equation of a line: y=-x+10.

[Culex]

I took a class in highschool where we proved that is not all knowing or all powerful by analyzing scriptures from the old testiment. I think it was called the Genesis of Justice. It was def the most interesting class Ive ever taken, even though the teacher sucked balls.

[Crack Monk]

However, if all was good and happy, and sin and evil never existed, is there truly love?

If loving is the only thing we are capable of, is it true love?

No. If humans are presented with a choice, either to stray from their maker or choose to love and worship him, that is a big choice. That is an actual feeling.

I suppose in the end though it just looks like we're dolls in God's house, ants under His microscope.

Alright, I see the point that Avarik is making here. (Oh, God... I can't believe I just said that.) But think of it this way.

God creates man.

God knows absolutely everything that is going to happen to man from the beginning of time to the end of it.

Throughout history, many people choose to live honest and good lives. Others, however, choose to live sinful, hate-filled lives.

But every single person that was ever born was born because of God's actions. He created them, knowing exactly what direction they would choose. He set up all the circumstances of their lives so that they would have to choose between good and evil, and he knew from the beginning which one they would pick.

If you were created by someone who knew everything you were going to do before you did it... doesn't that kinda destroy free will entirely? If God created you, and you happened to lead an evil life... you're doing it because that's how God made you. Sure, you had the right to choose, but really, you would only choose one thing. You were born into that fate, and God knew it. That's not free will at all.


I'm going to put this in as simple words for you Livewire guys as possible.

Yes, God created evil. For the universe to retain or even achieve equilibrium, the equation must be balanced. God, who is the paradigm of good, equals 1. Evil, the antithesis and inveersion of all that represents good, is -1.

1+(-1)= 0

Do you see how that equation works out? Complex math isn't the only answer to this predicament. In a utopian universe, like Avarik said, we wouldn't be having this discussion. This is all of the more reason to follow Christianity and to escape the darkness.

EDIT: Ok, so maybe the words weren't as elementary as I had planned.

This implies that God can't break general laws of physics. If God were all-powerful, he could throw the universe into total imbalance by creating good without evil, and it would be perfectly fine, because he's GOD. God isn't governed by any laws of any kind.

Really, all this would prove is that science is God, and what we currently believe is God is merely a guy using the tools of science to their greatest extent.

Maybe you've created a new religion here. That sounds sweet.

[Napalm]

Look. God is like a Father figure.
And we're the child.
Our father figure just bought us a new skateboard. And you know what he did? He let us ride it. He gave us a helmet, and some pads and off we went and tried, and we fell scraping our knee. And we kept doing so until we finally learned to ride the board without falling off.
The whole point is, that he wasn't going to go hold our hands through everything we were going to do. This is what you need to do with children, you have to let them learn that once they fall they have to get back up and try again.

[Crack Monk]

Well. Yeah. But if parents had the ability to create their own children, they'd probably make them smart enough not to repeatedly injure themselves on a skateboard anyway, thus altogether skipping the "trial and error" period of their lives.

God has that power.

Now, granted, parents probably WOULDN'T create perfect children, but that's because they'd want the experience of raising a child. God isn't supposed to be the kind of guy that fucks over an entire planet because He wants it to be a challenge for them.

[Napalm]

That's not the point though. The point is, is that he's going to let us be free to find our own mistakes and to fix them.

[Hacky]

I'm going to put this in as simple words for you Livewire guys as possible.

Yes, God created evil. For the universe to retain or even achieve equilibrium, the equation must be balanced. God, who is the paradigm of good, equals 1. Evil, the antithesis and inveersion of all that represents good, is -1.

1+(-1)= 0

Do you see how that equation works out? Complex math isn't the only answer to this predicament. In a utopian universe, like Avarik said, we wouldn't be having this discussion. This is all of the more reason to follow Christianity and to escape the darkness.

EDIT: Ok, so maybe the words weren't as elementary as I had planned.

Alright. So if God created evil, and God is good, then how is the evil equally as magnified as the good? This is to imply that Satan is as powerful as God is, correct? Which can't be possible, becuase God threw Lucifer into the pits of hell when he revolted, if they were of equal power he couldn't have done that.

So then the world isn't in an equilibrium.

And so we conclude: Why did God create evil if the universe doesn't need to be, and infact can't be, in equilibrium?

[Gozo]

Alright. So if God created evil, and God is good, then how is the evil equally as magnified as the good? This is to imply that Satan is as powerful as God is, correct? Which can't be possible, becuase God threw Lucifer into the pits of hell when he revolted, if they were of equal power he couldn't have done that.

So then the world isn't in an equilibrium.

And so we conclude: Why did God create evil if the universe doesn't need to be, and infact can't be, in equilibrium?

yah, that is true.. if he was of equal power he wouldn't of been to send him to the pits of hell

[Napalm]

No.
God created good and evil to balance out the world and create equilibrium.

[Hacky]

No.
God created good and evil to balance out the world and create equilibrium.

If this is true then God cannot be all loving. How can he love man when he wants equilibrium between good and evil? We have evil, Lucifer, and good, Jesus. So where does God come into play? If you say God = Jesus = The Holy Ghost, then God is good and God created evil = No equilibrium.

[Napalm]

You're not seeing it.
God did not create Good and Evil to balance out Heaven and whatnot, he created good and evil to balance out HUMANITY. When he created free choice, he created good and evil.
It has nothing to do with the divine. It is specifically for us.

[Phlintlock]

Look. God is like a Father figure.
And we're the child.
Our father figure just bought us a new skateboard. And you know what he did? He let us ride it. He gave us a helmet, and some pads and off we went and tried, and we fell scraping our knee. And we kept doing so until we finally learned to ride the board without falling off.
The whole point is, that he wasn't going to go hold our hands through everything we were going to do. This is what you need to do with children, you have to let them learn that once they fall they have to get back up and try again.

That is straight out of Angels & Demons, but it is relevant, I said it to Avarik right before reading your post. I have nothing else to contribute.

[KillHour]

Alright, I see the point that Avarik is making here. (Oh, God... I can't believe I just said that.) But think of it this way.

God creates man.

God knows absolutely everything that is going to happen to man from the beginning of time to the end of it.

Throughout history, many people choose to live honest and good lives. Others, however, choose to live sinful, hate-filled lives.

But every single person that was ever born was born because of God's actions. He created them, knowing exactly what direction they would choose. He set up all the circumstances of their lives so that they would have to choose between good and evil, and he knew from the beginning which one they would pick.

If you were created by someone who knew everything you were going to do before you did it... doesn't that kinda destroy free will entirely? If God created you, and you happened to lead an evil life... you're doing it because that's how God made you. Sure, you had the right to choose, but really, you would only choose one thing. You were born into that fate, and God knew it. That's not free will at all.



This implies that God can't break general laws of physics. If God were all-powerful, he could throw the universe into total imbalance by creating good without evil, and it would be perfectly fine, because he's GOD. God isn't governed by any laws of any kind.

Really, all this would prove is that science is God, and what we currently believe is God is merely a guy using the tools of science to their greatest extent.

Maybe you've created a new religion here. That sounds sweet.

First of all, God does NOT know what we will do before we do it. If he says something is going to happen, it's because he FORCES it to happen that way, not because he knows it just will. 98% of the time, God will let us have our free will, but when something NEEDS to happen, he will make it.

Secondly, God created the laws of physics, and generally likes to work within them. He obvioulsy doesn't HAVE to, but if he didn't, and we found out, we would have proof that he exists. God is about FAITH not PROOF. If there was proof that God existed, then to believe that he did would have no meaning.

And besides, if he did something to make everyone believe he existed, that wouldn't exactly be free will, now would it?

[Hacky]

First of all, God does NOT know what we will do before we do it.

So God isn't omniscient?

[KillHour]

He knows everything there is to know, if that's what you mean. There's nothing to know about something that hasn't happened yet, because, well, it hasn't happened.

The idea that knowing the arbitrary feature is possible is a fallacy. Simply because there's nothing to know!

Edit: He DOES, however, know what we intend to do...

[Hacky]

Oh, so he isn't omnipotent? If his powers are limitless, then even He knows what will happen.

[Napalm]

First of all, God does NOT know what we will do before we do it. If he says something is going to happen, it's because he FORCES it to happen that way, not because he knows it just will. 98% of the time, God will let us have our free will, but when something NEEDS to happen, he will make it.

Secondly, God created the laws of physics, and generally likes to work within them. He obvioulsy doesn't HAVE to, but if he didn't, and we found out, we would have proof that he exists. God is about FAITH not PROOF. If there was proof that God existed, then to believe that he did would have no meaning.

And besides, if he did something to make everyone believe he existed, that wouldn't exactly be free will, now would it?

Wrong. As he is omnipotent, and as Hacky pointed out, omniscient. God knows everything we're going to do, but like you said he doesn't FORCE us to do it. It's like watching a horror movie for the thousandth time. You know the girl is going to go check out the creepy noise, but you aren't going to go do anything about, you just WATCH. However, I've already disregarded christianity and shown it as false. However, some higher power did make us, wether it be God, aliens, or by complete accident, something made us. We live in a multi-verse, I can't remember where, but it was stated that we are but a small universe that's part of a larger universe, and that could be part of a larger universe, and so on and so forth.


That is straight out of Angels & Demons, but it is relevant, I said it to Avarik right before reading your post. I have nothing else to contribute.
Oh, that's where I read it then ROFL. I remembered reading it somewhere, but yeah like you said it's relevant.

[Avarik]

It's like watching a horror movie for the thousandth time. You know the girl is going to go check out the creepy noise, but you aren't going to go do anything about, you just WATCH.

So, you don't believe God is actively involved in the world? He just created an ant farm to sit back and watch it? You really don't think he shakes the container once in a while?

[Hacky]

If God is both Omipotent, without limits on his powers, and Omniscient, knowing everything, including what will happen in the future, then how do we have free will?

Question: Can you trick God?

Experiment: Think about something you would normally do, and then do something different. Does this throw God off?

If he can't see the future, then it must.

If it doesn't, then he can see the future, and thereby we have no free will.

[Inactive Cargo]

Hacky, the Bible holds up best when you don't think about it and unquestioningly follow the political agenda outlined in it. It also holds up pretty well when you ignore all the overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary.

[Napalm]

Hacky. Free will has nothing to do with omnisciency.
God can see what we are to do, but he will not do anything. That is where our free will is. We still do what we want, whenever we want. God plays no part in it.

[KillHour]

Hacky: Not true, that experiment would only hold true if he didn't know what you were thinking. He knows your intent to trick him, so you can't fool him. It is impossible to plan an experiment without thinking about it. ;)

[Avarik]

Hacky. Free will has nothing to do with omnisciency.
God can see what we are to do, but he will not do anything. That is where our free will is. We still do what we want, whenever we want. God plays no part in it.

Again, you belive God has no active role, in anything, good or bad, ever?

[Hacky]

But if I am bound to do a certain thing on a certain day in the future, then how do I have free will? I am bound by fate, God controlling it or not, if I MUST do something at some point in time, then I don't control my life do I?

KillHour, it is possible to do something without thinking about it. Arm Spasms can be done by you, but it can be done in an instant. Here I am typing and I am not thinking about every single letter I am hitting, now am I?

[KillHour]

He knows what you are thinking, so he knows what you will do next. However, since you don't know what you are going to do, say, 10 years from now, neither does he...

[Napalm]

Again, you belive God has no active role, in anything, good or bad, ever?
Yes. I believe God has no active role. Sure he may shake up the scene every once in a while, but other than that he sits back and watches.

[low tech]

But if I am bound to do a certain thing on a certain day in the future, then how do I have free will? I am bound by fate, God controlling it or not, if I MUST do something at some point in time, then I don't control my life do I?
This proposes another question about predestination and choice. Is choice just an illusion of predestiny, or does it only seem that way from a certain standpoint? We are stumbling into to uncharted territory without a compass.

[Inactive Cargo]

He knows what you are thinking, so he knows what you will do next. However, since you don't know what you are going to do, say, 10 years from now, neither does he...So he's not all knowing.

[KillHour]

Yes. I believe God has no active role. Sure he may shake up the scene every once in a while, but other than that he sits back and watches.

I wouldn't totally agree with that. He certainly influinces us (sending Jesus, Appearing to saints, giving hope, etc.), but only when it's necissary and for our own good.

Other than that, he knows we will work things out.

[KillHour]

So he's not all knowing.

Once again. He knows all the information that exists. If information does not exist yet, he obviously doesn't know it. If this doesn't qualify as all knowing to you, then no, he's not.

(sorry about the double post, it's a pain in the ass to put a quote in an existing post)

[Inactive Cargo]

Once again. He knows all the information that exists. If information does not exist yet, he obviously doesn't know it. If this doesn't qualify as all knowing to you, then no, he's not.But if he knows all information that exists then he knows what each person would do in every conceivable scenario, he can just run the entire world as a simulation in his head, so he can just plot ahead to whenever he wants to know.

[KillHour]

well, yes. He knows every possible scenario. However, he put in a random factor: free will.

Just as a chess computer can calculate every possible scenario, but can't know for sure until it unfolds.

Remember, we are created in his image, so everything he can do, we can do (just to a lesser extent).

[Napalm]

But if he knows all information that exists then he knows what each person would do in every conceivable scenario, he can just run the entire world as a simulation in his head, so he can just plot ahead to whenever he wants to know.
That's just it. You're not getting it. There is a strong difference between knowing and doing. If God willed it, he would run our entire lives.


I wouldn't totally agree with that. He certainly influinces us (sending Jesus, Appearing to saints, giving hope, etc.), but only when it's necissary and for our own good.

Other than that, he knows we will work things out.
You have a right to disagree, however I don't give a shit. Because you just said the same thing that I did. Being active means being involved. I'm active on the forums. So is Lordx87, but he's not as active. Appearing to saints is a small thing, it's not like he appears to saints every day.

So he's not all knowing.
Y yes he is.

[Hacky]

Allow me to ask a question: Does God exist outside of time? Or does he exist as a part of time?

[Inactive Cargo]

Allow me to ask a question: Does God exist outside of time? Or does he exist as a part of time?He doesn't exist at all. If you read the Bible you can see the foundations of it are plagarised from a panthestic society, and we all know how authentic plagarised work is.

[low tech]

If by "outside of time" you mean a seperate reality, then yes, he does. (or at least I believe so)

[Hacky]

So then, if he exists outside of time, why is it not possible for him to see the past, present, and future all at once?

[KillHour]

Hmm, that's a good question. And one I honestly don't have an answer to. (The whether he does or doesn't thing I mean)

[Hacky]

If he exists as a part of time, he is not omnipotent, having the limit of time set upon him.

If he doesn't exist as a part of time, he can thereby see the future, and in addition we are bound by fate, and have no free will.

[Denial]

well, yes. He knows every possible scenario. However, he put in a random factor: free will.

Just as a chess computer can calculate every possible scenario, but can't know for sure until it unfolds.

Remember, we are created in his image, so everything he can do, we can do (just to a lesser extent).

I'm going to butt in here with something I believe others implied but didn't quit expound on: free will doesn't exist.

Think about this, say that every single thing in the universe was frozen as a state in time. No matter how many times you could resume 'play' from that state, the following events would never change; they would always be the same because the stimuli preceding the actions would be exactly the same. Are you following so far? This shows that things all things react the same given the same stimulus. (Ex: In a broad example, if you flick a coin across a table with your finger, if it starts in the exact same place and you apply the exact same amount of force the coin will always react in exactly the same way.)

Now to extend the point to free will, your mind is composed of definite parts, aka nerves/atoms, that will always respond in a consistent manner in which all the preceding stimuli are directly traceable. Therefore, given the exact same situation (starting conditions/position of atoms in brain/outside stimuli/etc), your mind/brain will always react the same, think the same thoughts, do the same things etc.

Now unless you believe that the human brain is made of some sort of magical material (don't mean to be condescending here) and not known matter, then all of a person's actions/thoughts can be determined well in advance.

Edit: Closing statement to clarify better: there is only one possible reality that can result from a given point in time. This resulting state of reality only has one possible continuation, and so on.

[SyrupyDeathtrap]

He doesn't exist at all. If you read the Bible you can see the foundations of it are plagarised from a panthestic society, and we all know how authentic plagarised work is.

Cargo, i've read most of your stuff, and I gotta say I agree with a lot of it, being if not a complete atheist, at least a skeptic myself... but i'd say for the sake of this argument we're all assuming there is a god...

[low tech]

He's not completely wrong when he says the Bible is plagiarised. Its a little known fact that some of the parables were added as the book transcended time.
I can't really think of any specifics, because my mind is drawing blanks at the moment. :/ But I might remember later

[SyrupyDeathtrap]

No arguments from me, I personally see religion as both a creative way of protecting yourself (from yourself of course) and controlling others. But theres no point in arguing the supreme being's all knowing-ness when its not agreed upon, or at least assumed for the sake of argument, that such a being exists.

[KillHour]

Here's a question... Would a world in which we really had free will turn out any different than a world in which we just thought we had it?

[Destagow]

Your not disproving god(s) your only disproving their morality.

[Evonus]

I'm going to butt in here with something I believe others implied but didn't quit expound on: free will doesn't exist.

Think about this, say that every single thing in the universe was frozen as a state in time. No matter how many times you could resume 'play' from that state, the following events would never change; they would always be the same because the stimuli preceding the actions would be exactly the same. Are you following so far? This shows that things all things react the same given the same stimulus. (Ex: In a broad example, if you flick a coin across a table with your finger, if it starts in the exact same place and you apply the exact same amount of force the coin will always react in exactly the same way.)

Now to extend the point to free will, your mind is composed of definite parts, aka nerves/atoms, that will always respond in a consistent manner in which all the preceding stimuli are directly traceable. Therefore, given the exact same situation (starting conditions/position of atoms in brain/outside stimuli/etc), your mind/brain will always react the same, think the same thoughts, do the same things etc.

Now unless you believe that the human brain is made of some sort of magical material (don't mean to be condescending here) and not known matter, then all of a person's actions/thoughts can be determined well in advance.

Edit: Closing statement to clarify better: there is only one possible reality that can result from a given point in time. This resulting state of reality only has one possible continuation, and so on.

You forgot one thing though. What if in fact what was generated by a given situation which caused a chemical reaction in ones brain was not a definite action but was a triggering of a conflict within the brain that lead to a decision in which both of the choices were equally probable given the circumstances. If there was no thought process you would be correct. Instict does not allow for free will, but thought does.

That being said, I'm atheist because the bible has far too many holes to make sense, and it's interpretted in new ways every 300 years so that it isn't obviously false. (example geocentric theory being tossed out the window.)

[Napalm]

Dude. It's simple. You interpret the bible the way you want. Taking somebodies word for it is just stupid.

[Evonus]

Dude. It's simple. You interpret the bible the way you want. Taking somebodies word for it is just stupid.

But why even bother? I mean what makes the bible more true than the Koran, the torah, or the hindu holy book. What makes any of the holy books true? What makes them any more believeable than Darwin's "The Origin of Species"? That's the part that always got me here. Considering Darwin's book actually includes evidence with it, that'd be my best bet when choose a belief.

[Napalm]

That was never the point. The whole point of the bible was to offer moral guidance and support. It gave people hope, that no matter how shitty their lives were, they could be in a better place if they stuck it out.
It's not just another book you can rofl through, well it is but that's beside the point.

[Denial]

You forgot one thing though. What if in fact what was generated by a given situation which caused a chemical reaction in ones brain was not a definite action but was a triggering of a conflict within the brain that lead to a decision in which both of the choices were equally probable given the circumstances. If there was no thought process you would be correct. Instict does not allow for free will, but thought does.

I think you misunderstand me. Probability is nonexistent at the most basic level. I see no relevant difference between the thought process and instinct.

[Evonus]

I think you misunderstand me. Probability is nonexistent at the most basic level. I see no relevant difference between the thought process and instinct.

Actually you're wrong. On the most basic level(atoms) electrons are actually represented by a probability distribution. The higher the probability concentrations in different areas the different reactions. That's why nothing in chemistry is ever clear cut, you'll always a get a small percentage of oddball combos.

Also, I believe probability is the 6th or 7th dimension in the dimensional theories used to back string theory. So it is very much a reality, because often times things have multiple "options" that can happen and the most likely one does not always occur, but yet it certainly could in another situation, if that makes any sense. Basically what I'm getting at here is if the universe restarted from scratch some of the reactions and whatnot that formed the current setup would more than likely be different. It's like pushing enter on a random number generator. All of the possibilites have equal probability of comming up, but you'll more than likely get a new one everytime you push it. The same is try with our universe due to the nature of chemical reactions being based on probability.

[Denial]

Actually you're wrong. On the most basic level(atoms) electrons are actually represented by a probability distribution. The higher the probability concentrations in different areas the different reactions. That's why nothing in chemistry is ever clear cut, you'll always a get a small percentage of oddball combos.

Also, I believe probability is the 6th or 7th dimension in the dimensional theories used to back string theory. So it is very much a reality, because often times things have multiple "options" that can happen and the most likely one does not always occur, but yet it certainly could in another situation, if that makes any sense. Basically what I'm getting at here is if the universe restarted from scratch some of the reactions and whatnot that formed the current setup would more than likely be different. It's like pushing enter on a random number generator. All of the possibilites have equal probability of comming up, but you'll more than likely get a new one everytime you push it. The same is try with our universe due to the nature of chemical reactions being based on probability.

Oh really? That's quite interesting; I'll have to look it up.

Although, is the fact that the most likely outcome of something, like the position of electrons, liable to change anything on a significant scale?

Are you still saying that this makes instinct different than free thought, because I'm still not following your point there.

Finally, on another more God related point (as per the thread), if this probability is the only thing giving humans free will, then there is no actual merit in the ability to generate these unexpected thoughts or actions. Unless of course, for some strange reason, a human is able to control the probable outcomes for each individual particle in his brain.

[Evonus]

Oh really? That's quite interesting; I'll have to look it up.

Although, is the fact that the most likely outcome of something, like the position of electrons, liable to change anything on a significant scale?

Are you still saying that this makes instinct different than free thought, because I'm still not following your point there.

Finally, on another more God related point (as per the thread), if this probability is the only thing giving humans free will, then there is no actual merit in the ability to generate these unexpected thoughts or actions. Unless of course, for some strange reason, a human is able to control the probable outcomes for each individual particle in his brain.

Chances are we can attribute our own lives to a low probability formation. RNA can actually form in some conditions; however, double stand DNA is almost impossible to make. So I'd say we owe our own existence to a low probability event.

Instinct is a reponse to stimuli. If I'm running out of air and I come up to breath I'm being instinctive. If I'm depressed about life and I drown myself I'm contradicting my instincts with free thought. Same is true with sex. if I decide to breed I'm following my instincts. If I abstain from sex I'm essentially putting a logical decision before my instincts and therefore deny them.

[Denial]

Instinct is a reponse to stimuli. If I'm running out of air and I come up to breath I'm being instinctive. If I'm depressed about life and I drown myself I'm contradicting my instincts with free thought. Same is true with sex. if I decide to breed I'm following my instincts. If I abstain from sex I'm essentially putting a logical decision before my instincts and therefore deny them.

Well yes, obviously there's that difference.

Nevermind then I guess.

[Slevin57]

What I'd like to know is that if the Christian God is all knowing, all loving, always present, and all powerful, then why did he create anything in the first place? For he should've known that man would commit sin, right? And when does the Bible say man commited the first sin? I believe it was like hours God made man. Nice, great job.

So what's the point of creating billions and billions of people to have most of them die like dogs? That doesn't sound like an all loving God to me. I know that the Christian God can't intervene for that would take away man's free will, but I'm not asking why God doesn't stop the suffering.

Have any of you actually met God? Why are you speaking as if you know for certain what God does or does not believe.

We have a bible, which may or may not be accurate, or even from God. For all we know it could be created by an evil counter-god, commonly expressed as "evil".

We cannot know why God created creation, or why or even if he cares. A finite mind such as ours cannot possible understand the infinite.

The point is were here now, and we should probably focus on the good things rather then dwelling upon the evil, hate, despair and sinning that takes place in the world. :thumup:

[Jager]

Then how is he all-loving? In my perfect little kingdom I would undoubtedly give my little creations free will, and give them obstacles and such. But, I would never create such unimaginable evil as your God did.

Jager said:


Do you get any inteligent answers? What's their best defense?
No. I get either, "That's stupid/Doesn't make sense," or I get ran in a loop.

I read through to about the end of the second page and got tired of reading the same things over and over. Hacky pretty much covers the same foundation-shaking arguements that I use to confuse/annoy bible bangers.

My favorite question is this: What proves the authenticity of the bible and what proof is there that the Law that decides what goes into the bible isn't a conspiracy?

[Venderman]

Well im no christian, or jew, or any other religion for that matter, but i believe if there is a god (i don't really think there is) he made us and let us suffer and sin for a reason unknown and impossible to concieve in our minds. So what i mean is we don't know and will never know:think: . But I hope that if there is a god that he or she doesn't hate me. So you can come up with your ideas of religion but im gonna worship science:worship:

[Scout]

It is about blind-faith. We just believe it. But don't persecute us for doing so.

[Hacky]

Don't persecute others for not doing so, and there won't be a single problem.

Aside from the fact that Blind-Faith, a term you even used, is the most foolish thing a person can do. To believe in a God and not know why? You put your entire life, your entire belief system, your future, your soul, everything, you put it all at risk "just because"?

[Slevin57]

I'm quite confident that if God really wanted to punish mankind he could do a whole lot worse. Which is why I hate it when people blame God for doing bad things, or any extra-terrestrial thing.

God is not the cause of man's problem. MAN is the cause of MAN's problems, and until people start thinking like that, the world will continue to be fucked up.

I'm sure someone will say "that's what Science is for", which is fine, but Science has its own problems.. For instance some of our brightest scientific minds are working on making Viagra, instead of medicine to cure autism, or any other multitude of diseases.

People need to start caring on an individual level, and stop trying to blame it on God, or say that God is going to fix it.

He's a very very Busy man. He doesn't even have time to get back to us! :P

[Riv3r]

Don't persecute others for not doing so, and there won't be a single problem.

Aside from the fact that Blind-Faith, a term you even used, is the most foolish thing a person can do. To believe in a God and not know why? You put your entire life, your entire belief system, your future, your soul, everything, you put it all at risk "just because"?

If there is no God I want you to answer this one question. OK here it is. Where did we come from? you will probably answered one celled amoeba, well where did that come from. The universe well then where did that come from? It can go on and on. There really is no explanation except there is a creator. And secondly you wouldn't beleive in souls if you weren't Christian :P you said it in that quote. your soul

[Hacky]

1) Whoever said I wasn't Christian?

2) More people than just Christians believe in the soul.

3) There is a scientific theory for the beginning of life.


Don't say I'm not a Christian. You cannot make that claim, becuase I've never made that claim. I refuse to admit to a religion on these forums, because it creates a bias in all people.

[Riv3r]

I must have misinterpretted (however the hell you spell it) you, because in your post it said that blind faith was the most foolish thing a person can do.
Why would you argue if you're Christian?

[Hacky]

Not all Christians follow via Blind faith.

[Slevin57]

God is an extremely convient answer to ANY QUESTION

Why are people Gay?

Cuz God created them

Why do my feet smell?

Cuz God made them smell

How is Laminated Denier Lumber made?

It doesn't matter, God made it.
===

Making God into a being that can operate outside of the system, and be everywhere, know everything, and is never wrong is obviously always going to work in every argument as a viable solution to all questions. Come up with something new :P.

[The muffin man]

Laminated... lumber?

>.>

[Slevin57]

Laminated... lumber?

>.>

I work for a company that makes roof trusses and floor trusses, its actually Laminated Veneer Lumber (LVL).. I figured I needed to throw something weird out, and nobody would know that LGL is not LVL :P.

[mwknowles92]

This isn't something for us to ponder.
It's beyond our understanding.
We're just supposed to obey, not question.
This life is just a bunch of tests and training for what comes in the afterlife is it not?

[System_Zero]

Nothing is beyond our understanding. If you just assume that the answer is beyond your grasp and not even bother to find out then, sucks to be you.

Just becuase you want to be a blind sheep doesn't mean we all have to be.

[mwknowles92]

Nothing is beyond our understanding. If you just assume that the answer is beyond your grasp and not even bother to find out then, sucks to be you.

Just becuase you want to be a blind sheep doesn't mean we all have to be.

Hmmm....
I guess I did sound a little too much like my pastors.
I suppose I don't really know.
Shame on me.

[IsHatMePanTs]

"If God were suddenly condemned to live the life which he has inflicted on man, he would kill himself" - Alexander Dumas

That pretty much sums it up for me. In my opinion if you believe in God you may aswell smoke crack too. They're both proven, effective methods of avoiding the truth and providing a coping mechanism for human beings so that we can all just plod our way through the 80-90 years allocated to us. Does it really matter how someone spends their life? I don't think so.

[Hacky]

This isn't something for us to ponder.
It's beyond our understanding.
We're just supposed to obey, not question.
This life is just a bunch of tests and training for what comes in the afterlife is it not?

If God created us in his image, then he created us with the understanding to ponder out existance, and his.

If there was no God to create us, then why would there be any limits at all on our ability to understand?

And what kind of statement is that last one. It only applies to those who believe in God. An biased statement if I've ever heard one.

[Riv3r]

You're all right, we were made from dust particles in the air so you better watch that dust particle on the bottom of your shoe or it might turn into a human! (sarcasm intended)

Why must you athiests continue to argue with us if you all think you are right then what is there to prove? Keep beleiving what you will and we'll find out eventually the truth. If there is no God, big deal. I lived a good life anyways. If there is a God, then I feel sorry for all of you non-beleivers.

[System_Zero]

Dust particles? WTF have you been smoking? Since when are now made from dust particles? Fail.

[Riv3r]

Dust particles? WTF have you been smoking? Since when are now made from dust particles? Fail.

Well lets see. I've been smoking Pixie Sticks for quite some time now.

[System_Zero]

Lay off that stuff if it makes you pull these lame ass reasoning from nowhere. Seriously, dust particles wtf?

[Riv3r]

Lay off that stuff if it makes you pull these lame ass reasoning from nowhere. Seriously, dust particles wtf?

I know its not dust particles I just couldn't think of the right word right then. What I meant to say was microscopic one celled organism.

[System_Zero]

Um, all living creatures are organisms.

If you meant stardusts, that would be more pleasurable as almost all our atoms (excluding helium and hydrogen) where all forged within stars and more where forged in super novas. So in essences we're all made from stars that exploded.

[Shins]

http://www.sillyjokes.co.uk/images/wacky/props/feather-duster.jpg

The Common Enemy of Man.

[Slevin57]

lol your mixing science and religion.. The bible says God created man from a grain of sand.

[mwknowles92]

Trust me, all of this will be brought up to my pastor, maybe he will have better answers than what I can provide.

He won't be shown the site or anything tho

[Shins]

You shouldn't just pass along these questions to someone else; you should also try to answer them for yourself. Listening to what others believe, or tell you to believe, will only get you so far in life.

At some point, you've got to face this stuff and just answer it for yourself. You're the only one that can do that.

[Hacky]

That's the problem with people. The refuse to try and find the answers themselves. They merely find something they think is closest to the truth, and then follow what the pastor of that Church says to the letter.


Why must you athiests continue to argue with us if you all think you are right then what is there to prove? Keep beleiving what you will and we'll find out eventually the truth. If there is no God, big deal. I lived a good life anyways. If there is a God, then I feel sorry for all of you non-beleivers.

Um... it was the Believers that keep reposting. It isn't the Atheists that keep trying bringing it back up. It's the Christians that just have to prove God is real in order to save all the poor Atheists' souls.

And don't call me an atheist just becuase I'm argueing against Christians. You've never seen me say I'm an Atheist have you? I don't claim any religion online, because it creates a bias. But I do like to argue, becuase, as I said earlier, Blind Faith is a fool's tool.

And finally: Dust particles.... wow. No. Don't try to insult something you don't understand. It makes you look like an ass.

[Riv3r]

That's the problem with people. The refuse to try and find the answers themselves. They merely find something they think is closest to the truth, and then follow what the pastor of that Church says to the letter.



Um... it was the Believers that keep reposting. It isn't the Atheists that keep trying bringing it back up. It's the Christians that just have to prove God is real in order to save all the poor Atheists' souls.

And don't call me an atheist just becuase I'm argueing against Christians. You've never seen me say I'm an Atheist have you? I don't claim any religion online, because it creates a bias. But I do like to argue, becuase, as I said earlier, Blind Faith is a fool's tool.

And finally: Dust particles.... wow. No. Don't try to insult something you don't understand. It makes you look like an ass.

Sorry that I called you an athiest earlier, and I already fixed that I put down one celled organisms.
Actually an athiest (so I presume God forgive me if I'm wrong) is the one that started this huge arguement. But it takes two to argue. And anyways Christians really shouldn't be "bible bashing" because it makes athiests like Christianity less and less. (i'm not calling Hacky an athiest) Nobody can win the arguement between athiests and Christians although it will just go on forever.

[Maddox]

I agree with his post - because if you know everything, then you must know the future, for nothing is truely random (everything depends on something).

[FOCUSYN]

everyones gotta understand, GOD isnt a human. there is no he, and GOD doesnt know things the way we know things. its a totally different frequency. you cant ask how and why GOD does things because you cant understand how or why

[System_Zero]

Which is just an assumption since the Bible never states any of that.

[FOCUSYN]

exactly, so... being that we have no basis to assume anything, there is no foundation to stem such qestions from

[Destagow]

Cope out. If you simply say that you can't understand this, you will always be on top of the debate.

http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jbeebe2/Logic.htm should have something about that.

[FOCUSYN]

that was kind my way of chillin it... its me sayin we'll never know ...ever... without sounding like a total douche bag

[Shins]

But you do sound like a douchebag, all offense intended. You're saying that people shouldn't ask questions, and simply accept what they're told.

Are you someone who always listens to authority figures, no matter what, simply because you're used to doing it? Do yourself a favor and really examine the status quo once in a while. You might learn a lot about yourself and the nature of what and how you believe things.

[Destagow]

In the bible, it says you obey the laws of the land. Some Christians uses this when I present them evidence that Mary J. is less harmful tha teh booze.

[Dahari]

I agree with his post - because if you know everything, then you must know the future, for nothing is truely random (everything depends on something).

Can you say "Old topic?" =P

On a more serious note, I find it funny that people think the bible is true because it says the bible is true, In the bible

[The Badger's Sister]

i'm all for the spaghetti monster.
bible schmible.

[Destagow]

Can you say "Old topic?" =P

On a more serious note, I find it funny that people think the bible is true because it says the bible is true, In the bible

Reminds me of the start of YouTube - The Atheist Delusion

[System_Zero]

Bible says so? Checkmate?! Either this guy i really being sarcastic or is really, really horrible at Chess.

[Dahari]

That video was awsome..

[System_Zero]

But in all seriousness, one thing that's interesting is the bible never really explains the moon. Or to be more exact, all the surface impacts that moon has had. After all with that many craters on the moon you'd think it'd be written down somewhere.

But to date, there have been at least 3 written accounts about lunar impacts, and none show up in the bible.

[Shins]

Where would it fit in? The Bible doesn't really go into much detail on the Celestial bodies in general.

[Destagow]

In space, there is matter humans will never see or come within 100^5kTrillion light years (not scientific). So the question is, wtf is this for?

[MaudKip]

That's the problem with people. The refuse to try and find the answers themselves. They merely find something they think is closest to the truth, and then follow what the pastor of that Church says to the letter.



Um... it was the Believers that keep reposting. It isn't the Atheists that keep trying bringing it back up. It's the Christians that just have to prove God is real in order to save all the poor Atheists' souls.

And don't call me an atheist just becuase I'm argueing against Christians. You've never seen me say I'm an Atheist have you? I don't claim any religion online, because it creates a bias. But I do like to argue, becuase, as I said earlier, Blind Faith is a fool's tool.

And finally: Dust particles.... wow. No. Don't try to insult something you don't understand. It makes you look like an ass.

THANK YOU!

[Destagow]

I thought you hinted at being Catholic(?)

[Zarathustra]

Okay, so God seems to watching humanity intently according to most people (that is, at least, what I am reading). How do we know if God actually created humanity personally? He could of just created the big bang and left from there to do something else (heat a Hotpocket, create another universe whatever).

[Tangent]

...How do you die like a dog? Is it any different from dying like any other sentient being would?

What the shit guys, dogs die the same.

[Gravekeeper]

That would imply that God is not all-knowing.

Although having been christian most of my life, I don't know what their answer would be to this; it was never addressed.

Not necessarily.
Assuming that God is not all-knowning because of his decision to not act when Eve ate from the tree of knowledge is pretty thoughtless.

It's similar to you knowing that, for example, a crime is going to happen in your neighborhood, through word of mouth or other means, it doesn't matter, and then not doing anything about it. Why? Your reasons are your own.

[Archetype]

Well I am a Christian, but looking at this from a non-obective view, religion is all just a story. Honestly, it is the fabrication of something to explain the unknown, merely to keep our minds at ease from the fears of what actually might have happened. The idea of paradise is there to make us look forward to something when we die and have our goals set to reach this place. While some religions believe in rebirth, or reincarnation, they still end up in the same place.
When Hindus die, their "atman" (or soul) can be reincarnated depending on their life's karma. The ultimate goal is "moksha" or the ending of this reinarnation, where the atman is finally granted acess to paradice.
So like I said, religion is only there for one purpose; belief and erradication of the fear of the unknown


Note: if I mixed up my understandings of Hinduism with another religion, please correct me!

[Hacky]

It's similar to you knowing that, for example, a crime is going to happen in your neighborhood, through word of mouth or other means, it doesn't matter, and then not doing anything about it. Why? Your reasons are your own.

Big difference between a kid not stopping a friend of a friend from stealing some old Ladie's diamonds, and the all loving Creator of everything not stopping a single person from eating from a tree, thereby keeping the entire human race, whom he loves, in paradise forever.

[Gravekeeper]

It's the same idea, Hacky.
While the scenarios are different, the idea is essentially the same.

Someone has the power to stop something, wether it be the kid or God, but they don't. You can questions the reasons from both all you like, but it's fruitless. :/

[Zarathustra]

Well I am a Christian, but looking at this from a non-obective view, religion is all just a story. Honestly, it is the fabrication of something to explain the unknown, merely to keep our minds at ease from the fears of what actually might have happened. The idea of paradise is there to make us look forward to something when we die and have our goals set to reach this place. While some religions believe in rebirth, or reincarnation, they still end up in the same place.
When Hindus die, their "atman" (or soul) can be reincarnated depending on their life's karma. The ultimate goal is "moksha" or the ending of this reinarnation, where the atman is finally granted acess to paradice.
So like I said, religion is only there for one purpose; belief and erradication of the fear of the unknown


Note: if I mixed up my understandings of Hinduism with another religion, please correct me!


Same thing happens in Buddhism :D

[Hacky]

It's the same idea, Hacky.
While the scenarios are different, the idea is essentially the same.

Someone has the power to stop something, wether it be the kid or God, but they don't. You can questions the reasons from both all you like, but it's fruitless. :/

No, it's a very different idea.

One stops somebody from having something stolen that has a price tag. The "actor" is a human being who may or may not have any personal connection to the victim. (Be it love or hate)

The second saves the souls of the entire human race for eternity. The "actor" is God, who has a love for all human beings and wants us all to go to heaven (What Eden used to be).

Bad analogy.

[Gravekeeper]

It is the same idea.
You're not getting it.
Both actors have the power to stop an event, both actors do not.
Same idea, different scenario.

It's not a very hard concept.

[System_Zero]

Both actors have very diffrent motivations however, so it is not the same concept.

[Gravekeeper]

Who are we to say we know the motivations of God?

[Hacky]

And both situations have VERY different consequences.

Event A: You are given knowledge that your friend, Jonny, is going to steal from your neighbor's home.

Event B: You are given knowledge that your friend, Sam, plans on killing his neighbor.

Which are you more likely to act in?

Very different events. Bad analogy. Stop trying.

It's not a very hard concept.

[Gravekeeper]

You're completely missing the point here, and you're shooting off in your own little direction.

I think you need to stop trying to prove yourself right when you've gone off the original post.

It's not about consequences, it's not about the difference between God and humans.

It's about God not acting regardless of his knowledge of an event.
This is not the time to throw in some scenarios asking in which I'd act in.
I'd act in both, but that's not the point of this conversation. The point was that assuming God isn't all-knowing when he chooses not to do something is a pretty silly thought. He knew she was going to eat from the tree. Why didn't he stop her? Dunno. Maybe it was because he wanted us to advance? Plausible. We can sit here and discuss plausibilities 'till the cows come home, but that's also besides the point.
And I was comparing that to something more modern. :)

If you want, you can see Eve fucking everything up for us as a crime, too. :)

[Hacky]

And the converse "point" against your agruement, is there's no good reason for God to not act. If God wanted humans to become "higher beings" by gaining knowledge, then he wouldn't have forbade eating from the tree, or he would of created us as such. Which he could have done if he is omnipotent. Why add those extra steps which serve no purpose other than put the blame of our banishment from paradise on a person rather than himself?

According to the Bible, God didn't want us to be higher beings. Eating from the tree is what gave us the knowledge we have. We'd be the next dog for all the almighty creator wanted. Humans just happened to be the ones to disobey his single rule. If we were meant to reside above the others, we'd have been created that way. We created it ourselves, and were banished for it. Yet he loves us. He's the all-knowing future teller and thereby sends his only son to die for our sins, when he's the one who not only didn't stop Eve from eating the apple, but also created that tree, banished the two of them from paradise, thereby banishing the rest of us, and yet wants us all to go to a paradise in heaven.

Now, go ahead tell me if I have trouble following your senerio.

While you're at it, stop trying to make an arguement that is made purely on a vague point and requires no new ideas. I understand your initial point, I'm making a counter-point, now you make yours.

[Holic]

I don't know if this is written in the Bible, but does God get bored? I think he made humans to entertain himself. Or what if he made us as a sceince expirement to see what we can do and how we interact with each other?

[Bmoney1337]

my philosophy is that if there is a god... whatever religion the correct one might be... then he would forgive you for not believing in him, or beliving in another god...

but more to answer your question the first sin was comitted by god, when he created man

[Gravekeeper]

And the converse "point" against your agruement, is there's no good reason for God to not act. If God wanted humans to become "higher beings" by gaining knowledge, then he wouldn't have forbade eating from the tree, or he would of created us as such. Which he could have done if he is omnipotent. Why add those extra steps which serve no purpose other than put the blame of our banishment from paradise on a person rather than himself?

According to the Bible, God didn't want us to be higher beings. Eating from the tree is what gave us the knowledge we have. We'd be the next dog for all the almighty creator wanted. Humans just happened to be the ones to disobey his single rule. If we were meant to reside above the others, we'd have been created that way. We created it ourselves, and were banished for it. Yet he loves us. He's the all-knowing future teller and thereby sends his only son to die for our sins, when he's the one who not only didn't stop Eve from eating the apple, but also created that tree, banished the two of them from paradise, thereby banishing the rest of us, and yet wants us all to go to a paradise in heaven.

Now, go ahead tell me if I have trouble following your senerio.

While you're at it, stop trying to make an arguement that is made purely on a vague point and requires no new ideas. I understand your initial point, I'm making a counter-point, now you make yours.

They are not vague ideas, they are simple concepts that you're actively attempting to make more and more complex. If Eve had not eaten from the tree, we would be as she was. Since she did, we were cast out of Eden and were forced to learn to survive, adapt, and live. We ate from the tree, we stole the knowledge, and here we are, high and mighty about to break the boundaries of humanity and God through genetics. So now, my question to you, young man, is 'Why can't God not act?' Who are we to say that when an event occurs, he must act? We are not. However, according to theology: God is simple, and all else is complex. What's being done here is making the complex out of the simple.

@bmoney, keep your thoughts to yourself, you're infecting the youth with your idiocy.

[Hacky]

First off, what's the point of a "simple concept" without details? All things are complex, as you yourself said, so therefore I must make them so. Becuase you clearly won't give details, I must demand them.

Also, my age has nothing to do with this discussion, so do not refer to me as "young man", I find it demeaning as though you are trying to lower me below yourself. Your 13 extra years of age doesn't mean my opinions, questions, or arguements are invalid.

By the way, ask a real question for me to answer. Don't use double negatives, it doesn't make any sense. I can't tell if you just made a typo or what. This isn't me attemping to insult you, this is me actually not understanding what that question meant.

To answer what I believe the question means ("Why must God act?"), because he loves us, according to the bible. If he were to truly love us and want us to all go to paradise, then he would act. Otherwise, he does not love us. He chose to inflict suffering.


Again, next time try to refute my opinions rather than go back to your original. Let's delve into this discussion rather than stay in one spot.

[Comm]

my philosophy is that if there is a god... whatever religion the correct one might be... then he would forgive you for not believing in him, or beliving in another god...

but more to answer your question the first sin was comitted by god, when he created man

First, not every religion teaches forgiveness and at least in Christianity the bible says that one must attain a relationship with God in order to achieve eternal forgiveness and paradise. Plus, again according to the Christian bible, when God made man he made man in his own image without sin in Eden. The first sin was when Eve lied to God about her and Adam eating from the Tree of Knowledge. Oh, please use spell check with your posts.

[Gravekeeper]

First off, what's the point of a "simple concept" without details? All things are complex, as you yourself said, so therefore I must make them so. Becuase you clearly won't give details, I must demand them.

Also, my age has nothing to do with this discussion, so do not refer to me as "young man", I find it demeaning as though you are trying to lower me below yourself. Your 13 extra years of age doesn't mean my opinions, questions, or arguements are invalid.

By the way, ask a real question for me to answer. Don't use double negatives, it doesn't make any sense. I can't tell if you just made a typo or what. This isn't me attemping to insult you, this is me actually not understanding what that question meant.

To answer what I believe the question means ("Why must God act?"), because he loves us, according to the bible. If he were to truly love us and want us to all go to paradise, then he would act. Otherwise, he does not love us. He chose to inflict suffering.


Again, next time try to refute my opinions rather than go back to your original. Let's delve into this discussion rather than stay in one spot.

Well, you try having a discussion about religion with a screaming kid and another asking for donuts :P

So.

Age has nothing to do with discussion, and I don't know what in the hell you would find demeaning in being called a young man. I could've called you 'kid' but looking at it in retrospect, you would've bitched the same. I'd rather be called a 'young man' rather than an 'old man' any-day.

Secondly, no, you don't need to make complex of the simple. You don't need details to discuss the simple points that I was making.

Thirdly, God does not have to act. If we are like him and made in his own image, then we are like him not just physically, but psychologically. At least, that is my take on it. Now, [as much as I hate using this word] assuming that we are like God both physically and psychologically, he does not have to act.
He may choose to act, but he does not have to act.
Also, as a father I can see the good in God not acting. My oldest daughter will be starting school this september (she turns 6 in august), and it is there she will learn. Now, I can choose to let her go to school, or I can choose to keep her in Eden. However, I'm going to let her learn life for herself, while teaching her about the more complex things at the same time. I hope this makes sense to you, because I'm not that great at explaining my own thoughts. :(

[Hacky]

Using age in reference, particularly youth, more often reflects rash ideas and little consideration of the words being said. By refering to somebody as "young man" in a debate, you acknolwedge that not only have you taken note of my age, but know that I am younger than you are, therefore by a handful of generalizations, am less intelligent. It's a debate tool.

Next, why not go into detail? All you say is "No", but tell me why.

There's a key difference between your daughter and Eve. You don't say "If you choose to go to school I will banish you from my house forever, for you to live on your own for the rest of your life."

You have two options here: Either God didn't know, and therefore is not omniscient, or he doesn't truly love every one of us.
How can a God love all people, including people like the Native Americans, when many of them don't even have a chance to hear the message that Christianity has created. Think of the Native Americans before the Europeans landed, how could God have loved them when so many generations went by without a message of "the word"? Therefore every last one of them went to hell, not by choice, but by ignorance.

A God that choses to send people to hell and gives no other option does not love them. He might not hate them, but he does not love them.

[BhueGo]

I think the all knowing part of the christian God is taken to litteral. He knows you possibilitys of what may happen kinda like a huge system of pipes.

like if you do this this will happen which leads to this (kinda like the butterfly effect)

as for the native americans God also knows if you had a chance or not like if a baby dies it had no chance and God knows that so maybe the native americans got the same thing as they did

[Gravekeeper]

Using age in reference, particularly youth, more often reflects rash ideas and little consideration of the words being said. By refering to somebody as "young man" in a debate, you acknolwedge that not only have you taken note of my age, but know that I am younger than you are, therefore by a handful of generalizations, am less intelligent. It's a debate tool.

Next, why not go into detail? All you say is "No", but tell me why.

There's a key difference between your daughter and Eve. You don't say "If you choose to go to school I will banish you from my house forever, for you to live on your own for the rest of your life."

You have two options here: Either God didn't know, and therefore is not omniscient, or he doesn't truly love every one of us.
How can a God love all people, including people like the Native Americans, when many of them don't even have a chance to hear the message that Christianity has created. Think of the Native Americans before the Europeans landed, how could God have loved them when so many generations went by without a message of "the word"? Therefore every last one of them went to hell, not by choice, but by ignorance.

A God that choses to send people to hell and gives no other option does not love them. He might not hate them, but he does not love them.

Maybe I was right in using young man because you seem to be missing alot of what I say. Maybe when you've got kids of your own, you'll understand exactly why I compared my daughter and Eve. However, I'll try to help. :)
It is every parent's responsibility to let their child go into the world, rather than keeping them hidden from it. God saw fit to allow his child to eat from the tree of knowledge, and banished her with good intent. Now I agree with you on the line about the difference between Eve and my daughter, however once again you misunderstand the point, and make it more complex.
Home=Eden
Me=God
Daughter=Eve

now, Bible God banishes eve, we understand that.
I do not banish my daughter, we understand that.

However, both God and I release our child into the outside world. We release our children through different means, but with the same intent. We both love our children, but we must let them go. It's like buying your child a skateboard. You buy them the helmet, the pads, and take all these precations, because you are a parent, and you worry too much. The child recieves the gifts with joy, and goes on to play. However, he still doesn't know how to do it. So he tries. He falls, and scrapes his wrist, or something. it doesn't matter what body part is scraped. He starts bawling, and you come to his rescue. Now, are you going to let your child keep going at it, or are you going to take the skateboard, the helmet, the pads, and his joy away? I can't speak for God, but I'm sure he let us keep riding that board. ;)

There are alot of ideas throughout the bible, as I'm sure you'd know, and they are all open for interpretation. I'm sure you've heard of 'spare the rod, spoil the child' proverb. Some see it as 'beat the child to discipline them' and other see it as 'guide the child to discipline them'.
It is just as you interpret the bible more complex, and I interpret it simply as it is.

It was not written to be complex. God is simple, all else is complex. We, as humans, make complex out of the simplest things. Rather than a hammer and a nail, we create a complex machine and call it the 'nail-gun'. I'm sure that throughout the countless translations of the bible, it has lost its simplicity, and it was made more complex by the translators. I'm 100% sure of that.

Well it's time for work, I'll have to finish this later tonight, please don't try to refute this just yet, I'm not finished. :)

[Hacky]

I refuse to refute it based on the fact that you ignore my request and continue to demean me, and even go further to attempt to insult me.

I will have no further part in this discussion until you treat me with some respect. Just because I misunderstood (Assumed the analogy was you giving your daughter knowledge, like God "gave" to eve, rather than freedom as you meant it) doesn't require you being an ass about it.

Maybe you don't understand, I don't debate to prove a point. I debate to educate myself and others (mostly myself). If all it consists of is the other person acting like they're more intelligent than I am, and my points have no validity, then no new ideas are produced and the discussion is therefore useless.

[Inactive Cargo]

There are alot of ideas throughout the bible, as I'm sure you'd know, and they are all open for interpretation. I'm sure you've heard of 'spare the rod, spoil the child' proverb. Some see it as 'beat the child to discipline them' and other see it as 'guide the child to discipline them'.Yeah, a lot of crazy, crazy ideas. It also has some pretty crazy stories. I was reading Noah and The Flood and I could have sworn that it was plagarised from the Mesopotamian Epic of Gilgamesh (http://www.aina.org/books/eog/eog.htm#c12), you know the literary work written 1000 years before the Old Testament? Not wanting to have a crisis of faith (I mean when you find out your Holy Book (TM) has been masquerading a flood myth as truth it's not like you have much credibility left to work with), I consulted my Christian friends who told me that it was probably some filthy Pagans/Satan who travelled back in time and put an earlier, less developed version of the story into Mesopotamian literature. They told me not to think too hard about it, faith works better that way.


It is just as you interpret the bible more complex, and I interpret it simply as it is.Literal interpretation, eh?

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/255060
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/294284

I'll kill you if you don't believe what I believe!

[Darkguru]

You guys really need to remember ---GOD didn't write the “bible” -----its a collection of people (key word ”people”);) thoughts, "visions" , and personal interpretation of GOD's word -----so as we seen thru out history people will change things to suit the situation of the current time or for PROFIT ---- Lets say that nothing in the bible was changed ---and that everyone that contributed to the current bible did truly interpret GODs word in the way he intended-----there always the translation theory ---basically the bible was translated into many different languages’ before English ----so as we all know every single word does get translated or even the meaning of some words ---just the context of the sentence or phrase:think: -----my point is something is always lost -----SO DON"T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ -----compared it ---research it ----draw your own conclusion

[Inactive Cargo]

You guys really need to remember ---GOD didn't write the “bible” -----its a collection of people (key word ”people”);) thoughts, "visions" , and personal interpretation of GOD's word -----so as we seen thru out history people will change things to suit the situation of the current time or for PROFIT ---- Lets say that nothing in the bible was changed ---and that everyone that contributed to the current bible did truly interpret GODs word in the way he intended-----there always the translation theory ---basically the bible was translated into many different languages’ before English ----so as we all know every single word does get translated or even the meaning of some words ---just the context of the sentence or phrase:think: -----my point is something is always lost -----SO DON"T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ -----compared it ---research it ----draw your own conclusion-----TL---;---DR-----

Nowhere in the English language is ----- a valid grammatical construct. Perhaps the reason you keep fucking up the interpretation of the Bible is because you don't know the fucking language?

Hey look! A paragraph.

[Gravekeeper]

I refuse to refute it based on the fact that you ignore my request and continue to demean me, and even go further to attempt to insult me.

I will have no further part in this discussion until you treat me with some respect. Just because I misunderstood (Assumed the analogy was you giving your daughter knowledge, like God "gave" to eve, rather than freedom as you meant it) doesn't require you being an ass about it.

Maybe you don't understand, I don't debate to prove a point. I debate to educate myself and others (mostly myself). If all it consists of is the other person acting like they're more intelligent than I am, and my points have no validity, then no new ideas are produced and the discussion is therefore useless.

Don't forget that this isn't a formal debate. ;)
You go ahead and follow your little debate rules, however when you understand what I'm talking about, we can continue. I also don't have to show any respect to you, because I don't respect you and until you learn to respect people who've got 15 years on you and have more knowledge and insight into this world, you aren't going to get any from me. :)
Have a nice day.


@Inactive Cargo
You can't compare stories that are a thousand years apart. The story of Gilgamesh was handed down by word of mouth, and for all we know has evolved into the story of Noah. Yes, I acknowledge the fact that there was an epic of gilgamesh, and was inscribed. However, I don't think it was 're-printed' for a thousand years. Also, you seem to neglect the fact that the story of Noah and the flood is from the Old Testament, and written for the jews and their faith. Christianity and Judaism are two different things. Christianity bases their faith on the New Testament, and not the Old. So, in actuality, it is the Torah that has been stealing stories. ;)

I don't think you have much credibility since it doesn't seem like you know what you're talking about.

[Hacky]

Don't forget that this isn't a formal debate. ;)
You go ahead and follow your little debate rules, however when you understand what I'm talking about, we can continue. I also don't have to show any respect to you, because I don't respect you and until you learn to respect people who've got 15 years on you and have more knowledge and insight into this world, you aren't going to get any from me. :)
Have a nice day.

I had nothing but respect for you and your ideas at the beginning. I was making honest arguements.

Until you became an ass. Go fuck yourself, sir.

[Gravekeeper]

I had nothing but respect for you and your ideas at the beginning. I was making honest arguements.

Bullshit.

"Very different events. Bad analogy. Stop trying.

It's not a very hard concept."

I can read, and that's definitely nothing like respect. :)


Until you became an ass. Go fuck yourself, sir.

I'd tell you to do the same, but seeing as how you've got nothing underneath them drawers, I won't. :)

[Phlintlock]

Gravekeeper - 16

Hacky - Who gives a shit

[Darkguru]

-----TL---;---DR-----

Nowhere in the English language is ----- a valid grammatical construct. Perhaps the reason you keep fucking up the interpretation of the Bible is because you don't know the fucking language?

Hey look! A paragraph.

MAMAO!! Look I'm just trying to comment on the Topic. If you read it, I said nothing about my interpretation of the bible. Grammatical structure has nothing to do with the content of the message. Before you jump to conclusion, it would behoove one to truly read and understand before commenting. The bible today is not the sole source of information about GOD, there are many books that support and contradict stories in the Bible. In closing don't just follow along with what you were taught to believe as the "GOD honest truth” seek out the truth. --You should be old enough to think for yourself –

The Dash --- (use to emphasize a point or to set off an explanatory comment; but don't overuse dashes, or they will lose their impact.) But yes I do overuse them and do tend to use it improperly –but I did join this forum to have my writing and grammatical skills assessed. Hell… I would have joined “English Grammatical Structure Nazi’s” if that was the case.

[shibubu]

my philosophy is that if there is a god... whatever religion the correct one might be... then he would forgive you for not believing in him, or beliving in another god...

but more to answer your question the first sin was comitted by god, when he created man

If God committed the first sin, then God is a sinner, we are created in the image of God, therefore we are sinners. Since it it heretical to call God a sinner by way of the modern day concept of God, God therefore cannot be a sinner, if God cannot be a sinner, then he could not have sinned through our creation and therefore we are not sinners
God made us our own 'gods' within his own context, we are created in God's image, and we therefore are God. God has no sin therefore we are created sinless, God gave us free will for the free will of his own, we arguably are the gods of our own existence.
As humans we have limitless potential and command over ourselves both individually and indivisibly, we only sin by the standards and definition of sin we have set forth. All is forgiven by God because there is nothing to be forgiven for, we are prisoners of our own minds, that's punishment enough for anything we can of may have done. But at the end of the day the only sin that remains is sin itself. To truly sin one would have to deny existence itself, in the denial of existence one would deny God, but on the flip if one were to deny God one would only be denying the concept we have created and only strengthen existence itself.
For God to have sinned he would have had to deny his own existence in other words he would have had to not create us (beings in his own image).

[Rusty Foe]

I wish to believe in a god, but the likely hood of that been true isn't real... for me. I was raised in a atheist family all my life, I have never stepped in a church.

[Psycoticlese]

we all know that as human beings we commit sins every day. We were created by god who is an all knowing being, and the bible says that he created us in his likeness, which would mean that we have taken on some or most of his qualities. this brings me to the question "if we are molded in gods likeness, and yet we still commit sins does that mean god intended for us to war,or that god isn't really a perfect being?

[MammalSauce]

I know a guy who shat himself on a train. Does that mean that God shits himself on trains?

[irish]

sin is as complex as anything on earth. what is a sin to one person might be a "life or death" situation to another. what if you were faced with killing someone else to survive? if it were someone you didn't know, if it was someone in your family, or if it was someone that was a terrorist all affects your decision. that still doesn't change the fact that you are killing and that it is a sin. i'm not going to lie, i would kill a terrorist if given the option just because i know i would be saving lives. the good outweighs the bad. i therefore do not consider it a sin. i think that god would understand that i was killing this psychopathic man to save innocent lives from being destroyed.

God created us and we were ignorant. we knew nothing, we had no knowledge. it was when we took the fruit from the tree of life. although god is all knowing, imho god is not foreseeing. he has plans set out, but not everything goes to plan all of the time. his right hand man, Satan, betrayed him and led eve to the tree of knowledge which was our first sin. this of course changed god's plan which is now in a very long process. i believe there is a god because i still have yet to hear a better theory about our existence. to me the theory of evolution is similar to Scientology. absolute poppycock.

[IC3MANZ]

What I'd like to know is that if the Christian God is all knowing, all loving, always present, and all powerful, then why did he create anything in the first place? For he should've known that man would commit sin, right? And when does the Bible say man commited the first sin? I believe it was like hours God made man. Nice, great job.

So what's the point of creating billions and billions of people to have most of them die like dogs? That doesn't sound like an all loving God to me. I know that the Christian God can't intervene for that would take away man's free will, but I'm not asking why God doesn't stop the suffering.

The reason for that is the same reason that people have ant farms... to observe and watch them and see if they flourish or fail... thats all we are, a big ant farm.

[System_Zero]

If we were just an ant farm then there'd be no point in assuming the kid watching us flourish has a bunch of set rules for us to live by or sends us to ant hell if we're bad or don't believe in him or his son or choose to pay attention to the other kids who are watching us flourish.

While the ant farm idea sounds nice, it's a very un-Christian view of what god is and isn't.

[4 h4x0r]

Now, the creator or the universe is bound to get a little lonely, every couple of millions of years or so, so he decided to create some one to hangout with. Enter Adam. God saw that Adam needed a mate, enter Eve. Satan tricks Eve, man is out of the garden and now God has no one to hang with, but the angels. The angles cant love since they dont have free will, so he was basicly hanging out with robots. He got sad. Sad cause man was destroying themselves, so he needed to find a way to help, to coexist. Enter Jesus. The whole Jesus thing gets a little complex, so basicly it means that all us sinners can chill with God, and God can chill with us, and we all won't go to hell.

So God gives us a chance to stop the suffering, heaven. He can't make heaven on earth because of free will, which gives us a choice and makes us able to love him, but also makes us able to sin. If there was no free will, there would be no love, and we wouldn't think, so we would be puppets. I guess it's the only way for us to be here and exist with freedom in any regard.

Also, in the way you're looking at it, you look at life on earth as it, the only life but thats the glory of the christian faith, it can only get better after life on earth is over.

In conclusion, thats a difficult question, one people have been asking for ages, and I don't think I quite nailed it on the head, but I tried. Btw I'll be praying for you. Best of wishes.

[Destagow]

4 h4x0r, (trying to pick a fight with you. respond to this gdwtflol) Why would an all knowing, powerful god have the want for any attention?

[System_Zero]

Cuz he's an attention whore?

Seriously, the concept of an all knowing, all powerful god creating free-willed beings to worship it doesn't make any sense.

[4 h4x0r]

Love, he needed somebody to love, and to love him back. You see, thats why we have free will, so we have the capacity to love. If we were made without free will, we would be like robots worshiping their master, there would be no love there since the robots had no choice. I wish both of you the best of wishes, and you will be in my prayers as well.

[mingus]

Love, he needed somebody to love, and to love him back. You see, thats why we have free will, so we have the capacity to love. If we were made without free will, we would be like robots worshiping their master, there would be no love there since the robots had no choice. I wish both of you the best of wishes, and you will be in my prayers as well.

If God is omnipotent then he would know whether we would sin. He chose to create sinful beings. Also God must have created angles. Thus Satan was of his own design. Thus God created evil.

[tkmstr1009]

without evil the world would be a nirvana, but a nirvana was what man has been searching for since the dawn of time, thus without evil, we have no character; ney be bland beings, and thus the end would come unwittingly and unknowingly early...may god smite all evil hence we do not search; yet wishful thinking all it twas long for.

[Destagow]

christ...

K GUYZ. Ima mr. god.I know everything and ama super strung and kno whut ur thinking. I don;t require nething 2 run cuz i'm zuper kewl!!! so, tis being said... ima'guning 2 mke u cuz i need somthing, but I dount need nething cuz ima god.

so rally, i just mde u 4 teh lolz.

/edit: Serious edit for the person who posted in poetic SERIOUZNESS LAWS!

(this may be crossing over with how I debate. I often use the existence of time to attack. I make no claims that this is how I think.)

Here is how I, personally, view what the Christian god thought when he deiced to create the world. "I know everything, correct. I can do everything, correct. I do not require any food, water, or any type of fuel, mental or physical, to be working. However, I will create a being of dirty, filthily sinners, who I will often go irate over; they surley could not have thought that, could they?"

But, in reality, I MADE HUUMANZ 4 TEH LOLZ!

[tkmstr1009]

dude come on this is a serious topic...it deserves a real answer

[4 h4x0r]

If God is omnipotent then he would know whether we would sin. He chose to create sinful beings. Also God must have created angles. Thus Satan was of his own design. Thus God created evil.

No, I think that God created Satan purposfully, because without him we would not be temped to do things that were against God's word, and therefor no free will. Also, here is another story that some of you might recognize :)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The professor of a university challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?" A student answered bravely, "Yes, he did".

The professor then asked, "If God created everything, then he created evil. Since evil exists (as noticed by our own actions), so God is evil. The student couldn't respond to that statement causing the professor to conclude that he had "proved" that "belief in God" was a fairy tale, and therefore worthless.

Another student raised his hand and asked the professor, "May I pose a question? " "Of course" answered the professor. The young student stood up and asked : "Professor does Cold exists?" The professor answered, "What kind of question is that?...Of course the cold exists... haven't you ever been cold?" The young student answered, "In fact sir, Cold does not exist. According to the laws of Physics, what we consider cold, in fact is the absence of heat. Anything is able to be studied as long as it transmits energy (heat). Absolute Zero is the total absence of heat, but cold does not exist. What we have done is create a term to describe how we feel if we don't have body heat or we are not hot." "And, does Dark exist?", he continued. The professor answered "Of course". This time the student responded, "Again you're wrong, Sir. Darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in fact simply the absence of light. Light can be studied, darkness can not. Darkness cannot be broken down. A simple ray of light tears the darkness and illuminates the surface where the! light beam finishes. Dark is a term that we humans have created to describe what happens when there's lack of light." Finally, the student asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?" The professor replied, "Of course it exists, as I mentioned at the beginning, we see violations, crimes and violence anywhere in the world, and those things are evil."

The student responded, "Sir, Evil does not exist. Just as in the previous cases, Evil is a term which man has created to describe the result of the absence of God's presence in the hearts of man."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe this answer might suffice, but if you have anymore questions, fire away. I'll be keeping you in my prayers.

[System_Zero]

In other words evil is just a diffrent point of view? That kind of thinking is more Buddhist than Christian. But then why does god tell us that this point of view is bad? If it is wrong, and people perform these acts willingly, then why does god allow it, knowing what this "point of view" will cause? But if that's the case, why are things as homosexuality seen as "evils", yet evil itself is belittled to nothing more than just a diffrent point of view?

The problem though with the hole "loving god" is that many Christians tend to forget that god originally wasn't a very merciful god. It wasn't until the New Testament that god was portrayed as loving, merciful being that loved all his creations as opposed to a angry, vengeful god who could end your life with a mere thought.

[4 h4x0r]

Its not really a point of view, but just a lack of God, thats what evil is. In response to what you said in the old testament God was still perceived as a merciful God, he forgave Israel many times over for forgetting him (Israel would need help, then they would ask God, he would send down a Judge or basically a hero, then once their crisis was over Israel would turn its back on God once more, and this continued until God rose up a army against Israel to punish them for this), he also could have ended humanity after the fall of man, but he didn't. You see, in this time in history, people would have to atone for their sins by sacrificing and animal. This was because the animal has no soul, so it couldn't sin, making it pure. Now, when Jesus came to earth he acted as that sacrifice, except he acted as that sacrifice for all of man kind. Thats some kinda love right there.

So God is actually slow to anger and quick to forgive, but when he feels like punishing someone, he seems to always do it in a big way.

In response to your question as to why God allows these things, if he took away humans ability to choose, he would be taking away our free will, and we would be forced to love him.

As to your statement about homosexuality, yes it is a sin, but we all sin. Still thought, I'm not gonna say "Yeah it's good to be a homosexual", but I can't condemn homosexuality because we are all with faults ( it would also make me a hipocrite, which I cannot stand), and as Jesus said "He who is without sin cast the first stone".

Before I forget, God inst a vengeful God, he is more like a father disciplining his son. But he could also end our lives in a single thought, thats pretty scary.

I hope this helps, and best wishes to you System_Zero.

[Destagow]

In response to your question as to why God allows these things, if he took away humans ability to choose, he would be taking away our free will, and we would be forced to love him.
But... he did not need to create us. Him doing so was completely illogical. If you would predict everything in your head, the act of creating would be pointless.

Like, if I had the brain power to play a game of wow in my head, scripting out everything, there would be no reason to play.

[4 h4x0r]

Although he saw everything in his mind, he still chose to create us, which brings me back to a point I made prior. The purpose is love. He wanted someone to love, and to love him back I suppose. And isn't love completely illogical?

[mingus]

What the fuck are you talking about?

[4 h4x0r]

God and why he created humans when he knew we would end up sinning anyway. If you read my prior posts it may make more sense.

[Hacky]

So he wanted somebody to love, and he created death, pain, and evil (Through Satan) which causes our suffering and some people's hatred of him, when he knew that this would happen? Why?

[4 h4x0r]

First, you're looking at death as the end of all life, when there's actually heaven (and hell...) after that. Now with that in mind, I shall continue to your other question.

He knew that by giving people free will, he would also give them the opportunity to rebel against him and by that same card cause pain and suffering throughout the world. However, if we didn't have this ability to rebel, we would have no free will and no choice. Now, that would make us like a robot that was programed to serve and care for it's master, God didn't want it that way because we would have no capacity for love. We wouldn't be able to love God, love each other, or love anything or anyone for that matter.

Also, I wouldn't go so far as to say God created evil. I just think of it as God as light, and evil as darkness. Darkness is just the absence of light, and evil is the absence of God.

I hope that this has answered some aspect of you're question in some capacity.

[System_Zero]

Again, you're thinking of the New Testament god. The Old Testament god was never about love. It was him being worshiped by his "chosen people" who enforced their traditions as god's law.

God created humans to worship him. A god who creates free will and allows humans to go astray yet demands that they follow his rules or else he sends them to hell does not make any sense.

[4 h4x0r]

The New Testament God is the same, God, just with the fact that you no longer had to sacrifice a bull, or a sheep, or some other animal for your sins. Also, God allowed people to join his chosen people, but the Jews didn't always approve. They didn't enforce traditions, they enforce his law, which was admittedly harsh then, but so was everything I suppose. At that time, God wasn't able to forgive people's sins without a sacrifice, the reason gets deeper than I want to go at the moment, but I will if you request.

But again, If you read through the old testament or just skim through Genesis, Exodus, 1st & 2nd Kings, Judges( My favorite book in the Old Testament, It tells of a guy named Shamgar who killed 600 Philistines with an ox goad, which is some kind of farm tool), and 1st & 2nd Samuel, that might give you a different perspective on this issue.

[Hacky]

Also, I wouldn't go so far as to say God created evil. I just think of it as God as light, and evil as darkness. Darkness is just the absence of light, and evil is the absence of God.

So is Satan not evil? Or is Satan merely the absence of God? How can God create something (Or in this case, somebody) and yet be completely absent?

Secondly, God did create hell, so why if he loves people and wants them to love him, is he forced to create a place of eternal pain for people to go to? How can he love those people that he banishes to the darkness forever for the sole fact that they chose to use their "free will" (Which he gave them) and not worship him?

[Akuma Bajen]

What Hell? What Heaven?

Ecclesiastes 9:2-5, KJV All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath. This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

[Phlintlock]

God created humans for for some one to get some information first, just the basic facts, can you show me where? It? Hurts?

There is no pain, you are recieving. The distantship smoke, on the horizon
you are only coming through in waaaaves - your lips move but I can't hear what you're saying
when IIII was a child, I had a fever, My hands felt just like, two balloons
Now I've got that feelin' once again, I can't explain, you would not understand,
this is not how I am. IIIIIIIIIIIiiiii HAVE BECOME
COMFORTABLY NUMB

Guitars.

I wish I didn't have to do that, but I did. Also Dane Cook has no say in this matter as he is silly and insignificant in David Blaine's whole view of this calamity.

Oh, Obama 4 prez.

[Mephistopheles]

http://www.weisbord.org/Devil.htm

thats a good article i read a while ago it kinda explains your original question

[ipwnu]

When I ask this question, here's what I get told - It's Satan causing the death, not God....
Doesn't make since to me, couldn't he then do away with Satan? lol...
Well, who knows... What ifs...



What I'd like to know is that if the Christian God is all knowing, all loving, always present, and all powerful, then why did he create anything in the first place? For he should've known that man would commit sin, right? And when does the Bible say man commited the first sin? I believe it was like hours God made man. Nice, great job.

So what's the point of creating billions and billions of people to have most of them die like dogs? That doesn't sound like an all loving God to me. I know that the Christian God can't intervene for that would take away man's free will, but I'm not asking why God doesn't stop the suffering.

[Wander]

I've got a quick Christian question for YOU.

In the story of Kain and Abel, after Kain kills his brother and God sentences him to exile from the shit hole he already lived in, Kain was afraid that he'd be attacked by 'other people.' So God gave him the mark of Kain which would protect him from harm.

Wait...wasn't there only said to be Kain, Abel, and Abel's woman that Kain was jealous of alive at the time?

That doesn't make any sense.

[Moni]

In the story of Kain and Abel, after Kain kills his brother and God sentences him to exile from the shit hole he already lived in, Kain was afraid that he'd be attacked by 'other people.' So God gave him the mark of Kain which would protect him from harm.

Wait...wasn't there only said to be Kain, Abel, and Abel's woman that Kain was jealous of alive at the time?

That doesn't make any sense.

Aliens dude, aliens. On a serious note, i have never been able to find a reference or proof as to what who or where these other "people" were. Good eye...maybe wikipedia knows. Can anyone else expand on this subject?

[Wander]

Aliens dude, aliens. On a serious note, i have never been able to find a reference or proof as to what who or where these other "people" were. Good eye...maybe wikipedia knows. Can anyone else expand on this subject?


I did some research and nope. Nothing comes up.

*claps for Biblical inconsistancies*

[Stalin]

I did some research and nope. Nothing comes up.

*claps for Biblical inconsistancies*

When I was taking a look at Genisis it said God created us in his image so he could rule over us.

Another point of why religion is just a way to control people.

[thathad2hurtbad]

Hey, about the whole "why did god make man if he knew he was going to sin" Question, look into calvinism, its an interesting take on things.

[System_Zero]

It still doesn't explain why an egotistical, narcissistic, all knowing, all powerful being created humans for the purpose to rule over them and solely worship him, yet gives humans free will and as such allow things like evil, logic, and atheists to throw a huge monkey wrench into his whole reason for creating us.

[Moni]

This is starting to remind of that thread :"Are we a sim?"

I wont lie, i believe organized religion is probably the biggest sin of all time. At least..thats what i heard from someone.....ironic that it was a pastor at a church telling me this and a week later he got fired for having an affair with the drummer's wife. Touching story really.

Im looking into that calvinism thing and i think its unique that this is the first "christian" doctrine with this thought pattern. We dont do anything, God does it. In certain stances i would say this is quite believable...but then again, its still organized....