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Inactive Cargo
July 14th, 2006, 12:09 PM
From the July 18 2002 issue of Scientific American (a little old I know, but it surfaced on ShoutWire recently and it's worth reading), I give you 15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense.

(Article) http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000D4FEC-7D5B-1D07-8E49809EC588EEDF&pageNumber=1&catID=2
(Unabridged) http://www.sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=000D4FEC-7D5B-1D07-8E49809EC588EEDF

DON'T QUOTE MY POST IN ITS ENTIRETY

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15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense
Opponents of evolution want to make a place for creationism by tearing down real science, but their arguments don't hold up

When Charles Darwin introduced the theory of evolution through natural selection 143 years ago, the scientists of the day argued over it fiercely, but the massing evidence from paleontology, genetics, zoology, molecular biology and other fields gradually established evolution's truth beyond reasonable doubt. Today that battle has been won everywhere--except in the public imagination.

Embarrassingly, in the 21st century, in the most scientifically advanced nation the world has ever known, creationists can still persuade politicians, judges and ordinary citizens that evolution is a flawed, poorly supported fantasy. They lobby for creationist ideas such as "intelligent design" to be taught as alternatives to evolution in science classrooms. As this article goes to press, the Ohio Board of Education is debating whether to mandate such a change. Some antievolutionists, such as Philip E. Johnson, a law professor at the University of California at Berkeley and author of Darwin on Trial, admit that they intend for intelligent-design theory to serve as a "wedge" for reopening science classrooms to discussions of God.

Besieged teachers and others may increasingly find themselves on the spot to defend evolution and refute creationism. The arguments that creationists use are typically specious and based on misunderstandings of (or outright lies about) evolution, but the number and diversity of the objections can put even well-informed people at a disadvantage.

To help with answering them, the following list rebuts some of the most common "scientific" arguments raised against evolution. It also directs readers to further sources for information and explains why creation science has no place in the classroom.

1. Evolution is only a theory. It is not a fact or a scientific law.

Many people learned in elementary school that a theory falls in the middle of a hierarchy of certainty--above a mere hypothesis but below a law. Scientists do not use the terms that way, however. According to the National Academy of Sciences (NAS), a scientific theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses." No amount of validation changes a theory into a law, which is a descriptive generalization about nature. So when scientists talk about the theory of evolution--or the atomic theory or the theory of relativity, for that matter--they are not expressing reservations about its truth.

In addition to the theory of evolution, meaning the idea of descent with modification, one may also speak of the fact of evolution. The NAS defines a fact as "an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as 'true.'" The fossil record and abundant other evidence testify that organisms have evolved through time. Although no one observed those transformations, the indirect evidence is clear, unambiguous and compelling.

All sciences frequently rely on indirect evidence. Physicists cannot see subatomic particles directly, for instance, so they verify their existence by watching for telltale tracks that the particles leave in cloud chambers. The absence of direct observation does not make physicists' conclusions less certain.

2. Natural selection is based on circular reasoning: the fittest are those who survive, and those who survive are deemed fittest.

"Survival of the fittest" is a conversational way to describe natural selection, but a more technical description speaks of differential rates of survival and reproduction. That is, rather than labeling species as more or less fit, one can describe how many offspring they are likely to leave under given circumstances. Drop a fast-breeding pair of small-beaked finches and a slower-breeding pair of large-beaked finches onto an island full of food seeds. Within a few generations the fast breeders may control more of the food resources. Yet if large beaks more easily crush seeds, the advantage may tip to the slow breeders. In a pioneering study of finches on the Gal?pagos Islands, Peter R. Grant of Princeton University observed these kinds of population shifts in the wild [see his article "Natural Selection and Darwin's Finches"; Scientific American, October 1991].

The key is that adaptive fitness can be defined without reference to survival: large beaks are better adapted for crushing seeds, irrespective of whether that trait has survival value under the circumstances.

3. Evolution is unscientific, because it is not testable or falsifiable. It makes claims about events that were not observed and can never be re-created.

This blanket dismissal of evolution ignores important distinctions that divide the field into at least two broad areas: microevolution and macroevolution. Microevolution looks at changes within species over time--changes that may be preludes to speciation, the origin of new species. Macroevolution studies how taxonomic groups above the level of species change. Its evidence draws frequently from the fossil record and DNA comparisons to reconstruct how various organisms may be related.

These days even most creationists acknowledge that microevolution has been upheld by tests in the laboratory (as in studies of cells, plants and fruit flies) and in the field (as in Grant's studies of evolving beak shapes among Gal?pagos finches). Natural selection and other mechanisms--such as chromosomal changes, symbiosis and hybridization--can drive profound changes in populations over time.

The historical nature of macroevolutionary study involves inference from fossils and DNA rather than direct observation. Yet in the historical sciences (which include astronomy, geology and archaeology, as well as evolutionary biology), hypotheses can still be tested by checking whether they accord with physical evidence and whether they lead to verifiable predictions about future discoveries. For instance, evolution implies that between the earliest-known ancestors of humans (roughly five million years old) and the appearance of anatomically modern humans (about 100,000 years ago), one should find a succession of hominid creatures with features progressively less apelike and more modern, which is indeed what the fossil record shows. But one should not--and does not--find modern human fossils embedded in strata from the Jurassic period (144 million years ago). Evolutionary biology routinely makes predictions far more refined and precise than this, and researchers test them constantly.

Evolution could be disproved in other ways, too. If we could document the spontaneous generation of just one complex life-form from inanimate matter, then at least a few creatures seen in the fossil record might have originated this way. If superintelligent aliens appeared and claimed credit for creating life on earth (or even particular species), the purely evolutionary explanation would be cast in doubt. But no one has yet produced such evidence.

It should be noted that the idea of falsifiability as the defining characteristic of science originated with philosopher Karl Popper in the 1930s. More recent elaborations on his thinking have expanded the narrowest interpretation of his principle precisely because it would eliminate too many branches of clearly scientific endeavor.

4. Increasingly, scientists doubt the truth of evolution.

No evidence suggests that evolution is losing adherents. Pick up any issue of a peer-reviewed biological journal, and you will find articles that support and extend evolutionary studies or that embrace evolution as a fundamental concept.

Conversely, serious scientific publications disputing evolution are all but nonexistent. In the mid-1990s George W. Gilchrist of the University of Washington surveyed thousands of journals in the primary literature, seeking articles on intelligent design or creation science. Among those hundreds of thousands of scientific reports, he found none. In the past two years, surveys done independently by Barbara Forrest of Southeastern Louisiana University and Lawrence M. Krauss of Case Western Reserve University have been similarly fruitless.

Creationists retort that a closed-minded scientific community rejects their evidence. Yet according to the editors of Nature, Science and other leading journals, few antievolution manuscripts are even submitted. Some antievolution authors have published papers in serious journals. Those papers, however, rarely attack evolution directly or advance creationist arguments; at best, they identify certain evolutionary problems as unsolved and difficult (which no one disputes). In short, creationists are not giving the scientific world good reason to take them seriously.

5. The disagreements among even evolutionary biologists show how little solid science supports evolution.

Evolutionary biologists passionately debate diverse topics: how speciation happens, the rates of evolutionary change, the ancestral relationships of birds and dinosaurs, whether Neandertals were a species apart from modern humans, and much more. These disputes are like those found in all other branches of science. Acceptance of evolution as a factual occurrence and a guiding principle is nonetheless universal in biology.

Unfortunately, dishonest creationists have shown a willingness to take scientists' comments out of context to exaggerate and distort the disagreements. Anyone acquainted with the works of paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould of Harvard University knows that in addition to co-authoring the punctuated-equilibrium model, Gould was one of the most eloquent defenders and articulators of evolution. (Punctuated equilibrium explains patterns in the fossil record by suggesting that most evolutionary changes occur within geologically brief intervals--which may nonetheless amount to hundreds of generations.) Yet creationists delight in dissecting out phrases from Gould's voluminous prose to make him sound as though he had doubted evolution, and they present punctuated equilibrium as though it allows new species to materialize overnight or birds to be born from reptile eggs.

When confronted with a quotation from a scientific authority that seems to question evolution, insist on seeing the statement in context. Almost invariably, the attack on evolution will prove illusory.

6. If humans descended from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?

This surprisingly common argument reflects several levels of ignorance about evolution. The first mistake is that evolution does not teach that humans descended from monkeys; it states that both have a common ancestor.

The deeper error is that this objection is tantamount to asking, "If children descended from adults, why are there still adults?" New species evolve by splintering off from established ones, when populations of organisms become isolated from the main branch of their family and acquire sufficient differences to remain forever distinct. The parent species may survive indefinitely thereafter, or it may become extinct.

7. Evolution cannot explain how life first appeared on earth.

The origin of life remains very much a mystery, but biochemists have learned about how primitive nucleic acids, amino acids and other building blocks of life could have formed and organized themselves into self-replicating, self-sustaining units, laying the foundation for cellular biochemistry. Astrochemical analyses hint that quantities of these compounds might have originated in space and fallen to earth in comets, a scenario that may solve the problem of how those constituents arose under the conditions that prevailed when our planet was young.

Creationists sometimes try to invalidate all of evolution by pointing to science's current inability to explain the origin of life. But even if life on earth turned out to have a nonevolutionary origin (for instance, if aliens introduced the first cells billions of years ago), evolution since then would be robustly confirmed by countless microevolutionary and macroevolutionary studies.

8. Mathematically, it is inconceivable that anything as complex as a protein, let alone a living cell or a human, could spring up by chance.

Chance plays a part in evolution (for example, in the random mutations that can give rise to new traits), but evolution does not depend on chance to create organisms, proteins or other entities. Quite the opposite: natural selection, the principal known mechanism of evolution, harnesses nonrandom change by preserving "desirable" (adaptive) features and eliminating "undesirable" (nonadaptive) ones. As long as the forces of selection stay constant, natural selection can push evolution in one direction and produce sophisticated structures in surprisingly short times.

As an analogy, consider the 13-letter sequence "TOBEORNOTTOBE." Those hypothetical million monkeys, each pecking out one phrase a second, could take as long as 78,800 years to find it among the 2613 sequences of that length. But in the 1980s Richard Hardison of Glendale College wrote a computer program that generated phrases randomly while preserving the positions of individual letters that happened to be correctly placed (in effect, selecting for phrases more like Hamlet's). On average, the program re-created the phrase in just 336 iterations, less than 90 seconds. Even more amazing, it could reconstruct Shakespeare's entire play in just four and a half days.

9. The Second Law of Thermodynamics says that systems must become more disordered over time. Living cells therefore could not have evolved from inanimate chemicals, and multicellular life could not have evolved from protozoa.

This argument derives from a misunderstanding of the Second Law. If it were valid, mineral crystals and snowflakes would also be impossible, because they, too, are complex structures that form spontaneously from disordered parts.

The Second Law actually states that the total entropy of a closed system (one that no energy or matter leaves or enters) cannot decrease. Entropy is a physical concept often casually described as disorder, but it differs significantly from the conversational use of the word.

More important, however, the Second Law permits parts of a system to decrease in entropy as long as other parts experience an offsetting increase. Thus, our planet as a whole can grow more complex because the sun pours heat and light onto it, and the greater entropy associated with the sun's nuclear fusion more than rebalances the scales. Simple organisms can fuel their rise toward complexity by consuming other forms of life and nonliving materials.

10. Mutations are essential to evolution theory, but mutations can only eliminate traits. They cannot produce new features.

On the contrary, biology has catalogued many traits produced by point mutations (changes at precise positions in an organism's DNA)--bacterial resistance to antibiotics, for example.

Mutations that arise in the homeobox (Hox) family of development-regulating genes in animals can also have complex effects. Hox genes direct where legs, wings, antennae and body segments should grow. In fruit flies, for instance, the mutation called Antennapedia causes legs to sprout where antennae should grow. These abnormal limbs are not functional, but their existence demonstrates that genetic mistakes can produce complex structures, which natural selection can then test for possible uses.

Moreover, molecular biology has discovered mechanisms for genetic change that go beyond point mutations, and these expand the ways in which new traits can appear. Functional modules within genes can be spliced together in novel ways. Whole genes can be accidentally duplicated in an organism's DNA, and the duplicates are free to mutate into genes for new, complex features. Comparisons of the DNA from a wide variety of organisms indicate that this is how the globin family of blood proteins evolved over millions of years.

11. Natural selection might explain microevolution, but it cannot explain the origin of new species and higher orders of life.

Evolutionary biologists have written extensively about how natural selection could produce new species. For instance, in the model called allopatry, developed by Ernst Mayr of Harvard University, if a population of organisms were isolated from the rest of its species by geographical boundaries, it might be subjected to different selective pressures. Changes would accumulate in the isolated population. If those changes became so significant that the splinter group could not or routinely would not breed with the original stock, then the splinter group would be reproductively isolated and on its way toward becoming a new species.

Natural selection is the best studied of the evolutionary mechanisms, but biologists are open to other possibilities as well. Biologists are constantly assessing the potential of unusual genetic mechanisms for causing speciation or for producing complex features in organisms. Lynn Margulis of the University of Massachusetts at Amherst and others have persuasively argued that some cellular organelles, such as the energy-generating mitochondria, evolved through the symbiotic merger of ancient organisms. Thus, science welcomes the possibility of evolution resulting from forces beyond natural selection. Yet those forces must be natural; they cannot be attributed to the actions of mysterious creative intelligences whose existence, in scientific terms, is unproved.

12. Nobody has ever seen a new species evolve.

Speciation is probably fairly rare and in many cases might take centuries. Furthermore, recognizing a new species during a formative stage can be difficult, because biologists sometimes disagree about how best to define a species. The most widely used definition, Mayr's Biological Species Concept, recognizes a species as a distinct community of reproductively isolated populations--sets of organisms that normally do not or cannot breed outside their community. In practice, this standard can be difficult to apply to organisms isolated by distance or terrain or to plants (and, of course, fossils do not breed). Biologists therefore usually use organisms' physical and behavioral traits as clues to their species membership.

Nevertheless, the scientific literature does contain reports of apparent speciation events in plants, insects and worms. In most of these experiments, researchers subjected organisms to various types of selection--for anatomical differences, mating behaviors, habitat preferences and other traits--and found that they had created populations of organisms that did not breed with outsiders. For example, William R. Rice of the University of New Mexico and George W. Salt of the University of California at Davis demonstrated that if they sorted a group of fruit flies by their preference for certain environments and bred those flies separately over 35 generations, the resulting flies would refuse to breed with those from a very different environment.

13. Evolutionists cannot point to any transitional fossils--creatures that are half reptile and half bird, for instance.

Actually, paleontologists know of many detailed examples of fossils intermediate in form between various taxonomic groups. One of the most famous fossils of all time is Archaeopteryx, which combines feathers and skeletal structures peculiar to birds with features of dinosaurs. A flock's worth of other feathered fossil species, some more avian and some less, has also been found. A sequence of fossils spans the evolution of modern horses from the tiny Eohippus. Whales had four-legged ancestors that walked on land, and creatures known as Ambulocetus and Rodhocetus helped to make that transition [see "The Mammals That Conquered the Seas," by Kate Wong; Scientific American, May]. Fossil seashells trace the evolution of various mollusks through millions of years. Perhaps 20 or more hominids (not all of them our ancestors) fill the gap between Lucy the australopithecine and modern humans.

Creationists, though, dismiss these fossil studies. They argue that Archaeopteryx is not a missing link between reptiles and birds--it is just an extinct bird with reptilian features. They want evolutionists to produce a weird, chimeric monster that cannot be classified as belonging to any known group. Even if a creationist does accept a fossil as transitional between two species, he or she may then insist on seeing other fossils intermediate between it and the first two. These frustrating requests can proceed ad infinitum and place an unreasonable burden on the always incomplete fossil record.

Nevertheless, evolutionists can cite further supportive evidence from molecular biology. All organisms share most of the same genes, but as evolution predicts, the structures of these genes and their products diverge among species, in keeping with their evolutionary relationships. Geneticists speak of the "molecular clock" that records the passage of time. These molecular data also show how various organisms are transitional within evolution.

14. Living things have fantastically intricate features--at the anatomical, cellular and molecular levels--that could not function if they were any less complex or sophisticated. The only prudent conclusion is that they are the products of intelligent design, not evolution.

This "argument from design" is the backbone of most recent attacks on evolution, but it is also one of the oldest. In 1802 theologian William Paley wrote that if one finds a pocket watch in a field, the most reasonable conclusion is that someone dropped it, not that natural forces created it there. By analogy, Paley argued, the complex structures of living things must be the handiwork of direct, divine invention. Darwin wrote On the Origin of Species as an answer to Paley: he explained how natural forces of selection, acting on inherited features, could gradually shape the evolution of ornate organic structures.

Generations of creationists have tried to counter Darwin by citing the example of the eye as a structure that could not have evolved. The eye's ability to provide vision depends on the perfect arrangement of its parts, these critics say. Natural selection could thus never favor the transitional forms needed during the eye's evolution--what good is half an eye? Anticipating this criticism, Darwin suggested that even "incomplete" eyes might confer benefits (such as helping creatures orient toward light) and thereby survive for further evolutionary refinement. Biology has vindicated Darwin: researchers have identified primitive eyes and light-sensing organs throughout the animal kingdom and have even tracked the evolutionary history of eyes through comparative genetics. (It now appears that in various families of organisms, eyes have evolved independently.)

Today's intelligent-design advocates are more sophisticated than their predecessors, but their arguments and goals are not fundamentally different. They criticize evolution by trying to demonstrate that it could not account for life as we know it and then insist that the only tenable alternative is that life was designed by an unidentified intelligence.

15. Recent discoveries prove that even at the microscopic level, life has a quality of complexity that could not have come about through evolution.

"Irreducible complexity" is the battle cry of Michael J. Behe of Lehigh University, author of Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution. As a household example of irreducible complexity, Behe chooses the mousetrap--a machine that could not function if any of its pieces were missing and whose pieces have no value except as parts of the whole. What is true of the mousetrap, he says, is even truer of the bacterial flagellum, a whiplike cellular organelle used for propulsion that operates like an outboard motor. The proteins that make up a flagellum are uncannily arranged into motor components, a universal joint and other structures like those that a human engineer might specify. The possibility that this intricate array could have arisen through evolutionary modification is virtually nil, Behe argues, and that bespeaks intelligent design. He makes similar points about the blood's clotting mechanism and other molecular systems.

Yet evolutionary biologists have answers to these objections. First, there exist flagellae with forms simpler than the one that Behe cites, so it is not necessary for all those components to be present for a flagellum to work. The sophisticated components of this flagellum all have precedents elsewhere in nature, as described by Kenneth R. Miller of Brown University and others. In fact, the entire flagellum assembly is extremely similar to an organelle that Yersinia pestis, the bubonic plague bacterium, uses to inject toxins into cells.

The key is that the flagellum's component structures, which Behe suggests have no value apart from their role in propulsion, can serve multiple functions that would have helped favor their evolution. The final evolution of the flagellum might then have involved only the novel recombination of sophisticated parts that initially evolved for other purposes. Similarly, the blood-clotting system seems to involve the modification and elaboration of proteins that were originally used in digestion, according to studies by Russell F. Doolittle of the University of California at San Diego. So some of the complexity that Behe calls proof of intelligent design is not irreducible at all.

Complexity of a different kind--"specified complexity"--is the cornerstone of the intelligent-design arguments of William A. Dembski of Baylor University in his books The Design Inference and No Free Lunch. Essentially his argument is that living things are complex in a way that undirected, random processes could never produce. The only logical conclusion, Dembski asserts, in an echo of Paley 200 years ago, is that some superhuman intelligence created and shaped life.

Dembski's argument contains several holes. It is wrong to insinuate that the field of explanations consists only of random processes or designing intelligences. Researchers into nonlinear systems and cellular automata at the Santa Fe Institute and elsewhere have demonstrated that simple, undirected processes can yield extraordinarily complex patterns. Some of the complexity seen in organisms may therefore emerge through natural phenomena that we as yet barely understand. But that is far different from saying that the complexity could not have arisen naturally.

"Creation science" is a contradiction in terms. A central tenet of modern science is methodological naturalism--it seeks to explain the universe purely in terms of observed or testable natural mechanisms. Thus, physics describes the atomic nucleus with specific concepts governing matter and energy, and it tests those descriptions experimentally. Physicists introduce new particles, such as quarks, to flesh out their theories only when data show that the previous descriptions cannot adequately explain observed phenomena. The new particles do not have arbitrary properties, moreover--their definitions are tightly constrained, because the new particles must fit within the existing framework of physics.

In contrast, intelligent-design theorists invoke shadowy entities that conveniently have whatever unconstrained abilities are needed to solve the mystery at hand. Rather than expanding scientific inquiry, such answers shut it down. (How does one disprove the existence of omnipotent intelligences?)

Intelligent design offers few answers. For instance, when and how did a designing intelligence intervene in life's history? By creating the first DNA? The first cell? The first human? Was every species designed, or just a few early ones? Proponents of intelligent-design theory frequently decline to be pinned down on these points. They do not even make real attempts to reconcile their disparate ideas about intelligent design. Instead they pursue argument by exclusion--that is, they belittle evolutionary explanations as far-fetched or incomplete and then imply that only design-based alternatives remain.

Logically, this is misleading: even if one naturalistic explanation is flawed, it does not mean that all are. Moreover, it does not make one intelligent-design theory more reasonable than another. Listeners are essentially left to fill in the blanks for themselves, and some will undoubtedly do so by substituting their religious beliefs for scientific ideas.

Time and again, science has shown that methodological naturalism can push back ignorance, finding increasingly detailed and informative answers to mysteries that once seemed impenetrable: the nature of light, the causes of disease, how the brain works. Evolution is doing the same with the riddle of how the living world took shape. Creationism, by any name, adds nothing of intellectual value to the effort.

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Focus of this thread: Specify your religious background in the poll, and then feel free to agree/disagree with creationism or evolution. I know there's at least one UberChristian out there who "knows" evolution is wrong.

@Edit: I spelled "religious" wrong in the poll title, could a mod/admin fix it up and remove this notice?

Phlintlock
July 15th, 2006, 12:50 AM
That took a while to read. And I'm not suprised noone's posted, most creationists just got their asses handed to them, and of the ages levels on these boards, I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's not likely that many can dispute much of that.

Also, I'm sure creationists would be less-hated and the subject of negative criticism, if they actually put forth some definitive answers or did actual research instead of, as this article says, just tries to disprove evolution. (And come to think of it, I've never heard any Creationism-Evolution arguments where the creationists did anything but that)

Also, I think people on here got tired of the constant evolution/creationism stuff, meh.

.:FroznReign:.
July 15th, 2006, 12:58 AM
I agree with evolution, although, as the post states, it still cannot describe how life first appeared. I believe that the idea of "Creation" was developed as an alternate for saying "I don't know." when someone in the far past years was asked how we were first created. Most ancient religious civilizations had Creation as their form of the answer. The reason why I believe Creation never occured is this: the only answer I've heard when I talked about this with my friends (some very religious) was "How can you say that something people have belived in for centuries and millenia is wrong?" and although they aren't scientific or religious experts, that is one of the main arguments against evolution.

iLazz 2.0
July 15th, 2006, 01:38 AM
Creationists are really quite bizzare.

cassos
July 15th, 2006, 01:56 AM
ocus of this thread: Specify your religious background in the poll, and then feel free to agree/disagree with creationism or evolution. I know there's at least one UberChristian out there who "knows" evolution is wrong.Religions is the worst that happenned to Humanity, according to History.

The muffin man
July 15th, 2006, 04:59 AM
I agree with evolution, although, as the post states, it still cannot describe how life first appeared. I believe that the idea of "Creation" was developed as an alternate for saying "I don't know." when someone in the far past years was asked how we were first created. Most ancient religious civilizations had Creation as their form of the answer. The reason why I believe Creation never occured is this: the only answer I've heard when I talked about this with my friends (some very religious) was "How can you say that something people have belived in for centuries and millenia is wrong?" and although they aren't scientific or religious experts, that is one of the main arguments against evolution.

Science can explain how we became from the atmosphere of the original Earth to our forms of today. It cannot, however, explain why.

Science explains how; questions of why should be left to philosophy.


Religions is the worst that could happenned Humanity, according to History.

Here's my thought on religion's origin and its role in society.

Strong philosophies have always had strong follwers. I think religion was a vital stage for human development. Without it and similar philosophies, our modern way of producing thought would be quite lacking. Relgion is, in fact, another way of representing something one does not understand. You might be a biologist but things like superstring theory may seem hazy and distant, so you may not be prompted to think about it and consider it in your everyday work. Religion is a vast expansion of this concept, applying placeholders such as dieties to scientific concepts.

ps. Wonderful post, IC. It will be quite a sight to see some try to argue with evolution after such a scientific trouncing.

genesis[OFT]
July 15th, 2006, 09:45 AM
Why are you SO determined to put Christianity to death? Christianity isn't about evolution or creation: those are merely subsections. Christianity is about believing in someone who died to protect you from sin. It's that simple. Atheists blow it WAY out of proportion when they try and critisise mere subsections of Christianity.

And anyway, Atheists, in all their knowledge, like to put down a religion that is offering them eternal life just by believing in someone. At the very least, Atheists are pretty damn pessimistic about life in general.

What do you atheists think happens when you die? You rot and disintergrate into nothing. Is that what the most complex lifeform currently known to man is worth in the end? All you are in the end is pathetic rotted bones

Be happy.

Darc
July 15th, 2006, 09:50 AM
I would say that evoluction could be true, and im not against it.

However, for christians/ect i have one question: Who created the humans?

You would answer 'God,' but I would answer that humans created god.

IMHO, religion is a waste of time and energy.

Inactive Cargo
July 15th, 2006, 09:58 AM
... humans created god ...Ding Ding! Right on the money there.

TravTech
July 15th, 2006, 03:37 PM
God created evolution on the 2nd Tuesday after tea.. :P

But seriously WTF?

IC you're worse than those GD Jehovah's witnesses and Born again fucks combined!

You're fucking obsessed!

Do you constantly and repeatedly have to keep shoving this shit down our throats?

IC WE ARE FULLY AWARE THAT YOU ARE AN ATHEIST AND DON'T GIVE A FUCK!



Please explain the difference to me between some fucking asshole constantly preaching and trying to convert me to a god or religion and some other fucking asshole trying to talk me out of one?


Click for clue:
NONE! THEY'RE BOTH FUCKING ASSHOLES!

The muffin man
July 15th, 2006, 06:01 PM
']Why are you SO determined to put Christianity to death? Christianity isn't about evolution or creation: those are merely subsections. Christianity is about believing in someone who died to protect you from sin. It's that simple. Atheists blow it WAY out of proportion when they try and critisise mere subsections of Christianity.

And anyway, Atheists, in all their knowledge, like to put down a religion that is offering them eternal life just by believing in someone. At the very least, Atheists are pretty damn pessimistic about life in general.

What do you atheists think happens when you die? You rot and disintergrate into nothing. Is that what the most complex lifeform currently known to man is worth in the end? All you are in the end is pathetic rotted bones

Be happy.

It's more like when creationists overstep their boundaries and try to get creationism taught in schools. They're only hindering human technological development.



@Trav: Do you want to know why science isn't a religion? I'll say it again:

Science explains how; questions of why should be left to philosophy.

He is simply expressing his beliefs and answering common creationist questions against evolution.

Admit it, you're just mad because you can only challenge his motives, not what he's actually saying. You do that a lot, in fact. Rather than flaming him, why not try to argue the opposite point in an attempt to prove him wrong?

TravTech
July 15th, 2006, 06:12 PM
Please quote and highlight wherever on this board I said science was a religion.

He's expressing his belief ad nauseam. This has got to be about the 50th freaking thread where he's preaching his beliefs. Can't he just add to existing threads? There's gotta be 10 on creationism already.

Also if you noticed NOBODY'S ASKING. So he's not really answering anybody now is he? Nobody's seeking his enlightenment. No, he's shoving his beliefs down our throats whether we ask or not. He's taking it upon himself to be "proactive" and stamp out that evil wicked religion stuff as if it were some sort of campaign or some crap.

Which as I said, makes him no better than those wacky pain in the ass religious zealots that try to convert everyone.

Give him a freakin robe, a pulpit, and GD physics book already, so he can show the world the error of their ways.

The muffin man
July 15th, 2006, 06:22 PM
Please quote and highlight wherever on this board I said science was a religion.

It's in the poll.

Microphotometrically
July 15th, 2006, 06:30 PM
Please quote and highlight wherever on this board I said science was a religion.

He's expressing his belief ad nauseam. This has got to be about the 50th freaking thread where he's preaching his beliefs. Can't he just add to existing threads? There's gotta be 10 on creationism already.

Also if you noticed NOBODY'S ASKING. So he's not really answering anybody now is he? Nobody's seeking his enlightenment. No, he's shoving his beliefs down our throats whether we ask or not. He's taking it upon himself to be "proactive" and stamp out that evil wicked religion stuff as if it were some sort of campaign or some crap.

Which as I said, makes him no better than those wacky pain in the ass religious zealots that try to convert everyone.

Give him a freakin robe, a pulpit, and GD physics book already, so he can show the world the error of their ways.

so you're saying he does this often?:rolleyes:

Just like i voted, stop trying to convert us. If we don't want to know or read about it, then don't try to make them read it. It kind of reminds me of those persistant jehovah's witness'. They constantly keep coming at your door, no matter how many millions of people shut them off, they still don't get it.

TravTech
July 15th, 2006, 06:30 PM
Which poll?

Microphotometrically
July 15th, 2006, 06:31 PM
the one at the top of the page. :)

The muffin man
July 15th, 2006, 06:35 PM
religious background
...


IC stop trying to convert everyone to you're beliefs dickwad 2

If that's not enough, I'm sure I can dig up something from LUE. I'm sure you've said it there.

Anyway, my point was that what he's doing is different, because science serves and different purpose than religion. Creationism has been encroaching on science within the education system for years, where it doesn't belong. I'm not against believing what you want to believe, but if it doesn't serve a practical purpose in the world, it should not be taught, meaning people should have an understanding of something that the world has generally accepted and serves a great purpose in our society as a means of understanding rather than shield themselves in a religious bubble of ignorance.

TravTech
July 15th, 2006, 06:35 PM
so you're saying he does this often?:rolleyes:



Usually it's just overly sprinkled throughout every damn thread he can try to force fit the crap into. But lately he's begun starting threads, addressing these "questions" that I've yet to see anyne actually ask.


Like one down on the main board called "Proof that God does not exist".

Of course he failed miserably and we're all still waiting on this 'proof".


He may as well start standing on street corners and handing out pamphlets.

Zandrel
July 15th, 2006, 06:36 PM
eh
There are good and bad points to be argued on both sides. Religion is a touchy subject that each person should solve for themselves, arguing over solves nothing. Forcing your own beliefs on someone else is nonsense.

The muffin man
July 15th, 2006, 06:37 PM
Like one down on the main board called "Proof that God does not exist".

Of course he failed miserably and we're all still waiting on this 'proof".

Teh proof is in the pudding. :P

Microphotometrically
July 15th, 2006, 06:41 PM
I think you could actually be classified as crazy if you were to do what Trav said ;)
But seriously, what makes you think that your little enrtry will make people change their minds?


u r t3h suk.

TravTech
July 15th, 2006, 06:48 PM
If that's not enough, I'm sure I can dig up something from LUE. I'm sure you've said it there.

Anyway, my point was that what he's doing is different, because science serves and different purpose than religion. Creationism has been encroaching on science within the education system for years, where it doesn't belong. I'm not against believing what you want to believe, but if it doesn't serve a practical purpose in the world, it should not be taught, meaning people should have an understanding of something that the world has generally accepted and serves a great purpose in our society as a means of understanding rather than shield themselves in a religious bubble of ignorance.


No,what I've always said was that science and religion are both uncertainties.

There is no difference, science has been just as well trying to disprove many different aspects of religion for eons. Now the geeks are getting their labcoats in a twist over creationism.

And if science serves a different purpose than religion (not that i disagree, just pointing out inconsistancies), why are the pro science peeps coming up with this"gap" crap that needs to be filled between the two?

LOL, You're not against believing whatever you want, but one happens to be a bubble of ignorance.

It's quite simple. If you want to believe we were created in a beaker, fine don't force it on me. If I want to believe we're some alien space kid's runaway science project, fine as long as I don't force it on others.

Any asshole that forces their beliefs on others is just that, regardless of what those beliefs might be. That's the point here, good luck changing that.

The muffin man
July 15th, 2006, 07:41 PM
No,what I've always said was that science and religion are both uncertainties.

There is no difference, science has been just as well trying to disprove many different aspects of religion for eons. Now the geeks are getting their labcoats in a twist over creationism.

And if science serves a different purpose than religion (not that i disagree, just pointing out inconsistancies), why are the pro science peeps coming up with this"gap" crap that needs to be filled between the two?

LOL, You're not against believing whatever you want, but one happens to be a bubble of ignorance.

It's quite simple. If you want to believe we were created in a beaker, fine don't force it on me. If I want to believe we're some alien space kid's runaway science project, fine as long as I don't force it on others.

Any asshole that forces their beliefs on others is just that, regardless of what those beliefs might be. That's the point here, good luck changing that.


You misunderstood what I meant as bubble of ignorance.

If you are a christian to begin with, and a strong believer in creationism, unless you understand scientific aspects of evolution, how will you ever be able to trust your physicians and doctors? I believe that attempting to have creationism taught in schools is perpetuating the ignorance these people have in regards to evolution. It's these people who then choose to attempt to discredit scientific facts. This is where such questions as IC has addressed originate.

Religion is seperate from science. I just happen to be atheist because I believe that I don't need to believe in a higher power to live my life and be happy. If you need to, so be it.

Religion originally came about to answer questions about our world. Lately, within the last century, it has been used to answer questions of Why: "Why are we here?" and not so much questions of How: "How did we get here?" Questions of How have been solidly answered by science using undeniable proof. Religion needs to know its place. (and, in a way, so does science [not so much in this case, of course, because this is the realm of science].)

Inactive Cargo
July 15th, 2006, 10:55 PM
If we don't want to know or read about it, then don't try to make them read it.
You changed from "we" to "them". Ignoring that inconsitency:

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

And if you don't like what I have to say, don't read it ;)

TravTech
July 16th, 2006, 12:25 AM
It's kind of hard to ignore when you keep making more and more threads about teh same stupid shit.


OK! OK! We get it! You're just too cool for God.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/R0G3R/ForumJunk_2/Smilies/appl1.gif

naomiReturns
July 16th, 2006, 01:18 AM
I hate hard-line atheists more than evangelical Christians. At least the Christians honestly, passionately believe they're doing you a favor.

uberninja
July 16th, 2006, 10:53 AM
Although i agree with many of the point made that defend the theory of evolution, and personaly i agree with the theory of evolution my self.

Things like this is why i do not read Scientific American, i find that things like this are too closed minded. Scientific American fails to keep a broad view of opinions, Unlike other publications such as New Scientist.

The fact of the matter is that at this point in time we have no proof of what created the universe and that even though the Theory of Evolution is pretty sound it is going to be a very long time untill we can find out what created the atoms that all matter in the universe is made up of.

TravTech
July 16th, 2006, 01:22 PM
I hate hard-line atheists more than evangelical Christians. At least the Christians honestly, passionately believe they're doing you a favor.


Don't the athiest / pro-science types as well?


A: "Pardon me sir, but can I have a minute of your time?"

B: "Yeah, what is it?"

A: "I need to ask you sir, have you been saved?"

B: "Saved? Saved from what?"

A: "Why saved from your own ignorance of course sir."


:D

RobC
July 16th, 2006, 04:00 PM
I <3 Jesus.

TravTech
July 16th, 2006, 04:26 PM
I <3 Jebus.


Fixed. :D

TravTech
July 16th, 2006, 04:50 PM
You misunderstood what I meant as bubble of ignorance.

If you are a christian to begin with, and a strong believer in creationism, unless you understand scientific aspects of evolution, how will you ever be able to trust your physicians and doctors? I believe that attempting to have creationism taught in schools is perpetuating the ignorance these people have in regards to evolution. It's these people who then choose to attempt to discredit scientific facts. This is where such questions as IC has addressed originate.

Religion is seperate from science. I just happen to be atheist because I believe that I don't need to believe in a higher power to live my life and be happy. If you need to, so be it.

Religion originally came about to answer questions about our world. Lately, within the last century, it has been used to answer questions of Why: "Why are we here?" and not so much questions of How: "How did we get here?" Questions of How have been solidly answered by science using undeniable proof. Religion needs to know its place. (and, in a way, so does science [not so much in this case, of course, because this is the realm of science].)

Missed this earlier.


So I see... You guys are self appointed saviors, out to save the world from it's own ignorance. How could mankind have gotten along without you this long?

But it still brings up the same question that comes up when the religious fanatics are trying to "save" people. What of those that don't wish to be saved?


I don't need a supreme power to live a happy life, and I could hardly be a tech geek without science. But you two (and others like you) have taken this to the complete opposite yet just as equally obnoxious end of the spectrum.



P.S. I still don't see anyone here "asking".

Badeballen
July 16th, 2006, 05:52 PM
IC you're worse than those GD Jehovah's witnesses and Born again fucks combined!

You're fucking obsessed!

Do you constantly and repeatedly have to keep shoving this shit down our throats?
You seem to be very selective with the subjects and people with flame with this.
Take SkyFlyer for example, I have never seen you flame him for his barage of threads which pretty mutch contain the same stuff formulated diffrently.
In the end what he does is to start an discussion, if you don't like the thread just ignore it, don't spew shit all over the place.


For some further reading you should probably take a look at this, I found it pretty interesting when I read it a couple of days ago :)
http://www.biota.org/people/douglasadams/
(it was to long to put it in the post)

biffking
July 16th, 2006, 06:07 PM
eh
There are good and bad points to be argued on both sides. Religion is a touchy subject that each person should solve for themselves, arguing over solves nothing. Forcing your own beliefs on someone else is nonsense.
I couldn't have said it better myself. What I believe is what I believe and what someone else wants to believe is up to them. Why all of the harshness towards someone else because you dont agree with their opinion.

TravTech
July 16th, 2006, 06:58 PM
You seem to be very selective with the subjects and people with flame with this.
Take SkyFlyer for example, I have never seen you flame him for his barage of threads which pretty mutch contain the same stuff formulated diffrently.
In the end what he does is to start an discussion, if you don't like the thread just ignore it, don't spew shit all over the place.


Since you've gone to all the trouble of deluding yourself into believing that I must explain my motives to you, I'll do you this one time favor.

It's pretty simple really. Skyflyer keeps his shit to the News / politics board and in related threads. He doesn't strew it all over the forum whether it fits into the discussion or not as if he were on some sort of crusade.

System_Zero
July 16th, 2006, 07:43 PM
Last I checked, this as the "SERiOUS DiSCUSSiON" forum.

TravTech
July 16th, 2006, 08:02 PM
So he managed to get one in the right spot?

Give him a cookie.


It's the cumulative effect, not just this particular thread, that's got me riled.

System_Zero
July 16th, 2006, 09:25 PM
http://www.pyromosh.org/images/bbs/have_a_cookie.gif

So why not bitch at him when it happens in in the inapropriate location, rather than when it is. Cuz it just makes you look like an asshole.

TravTech
July 16th, 2006, 09:40 PM
You seem to be a good job complaining about my complaining. SO where does that leave you?

Again though, fuck the entire discussion, just play Johnny come lately and jump on the last post in the thread. As if no worthwhile exchange could've taken place prior to your arrival. :confused:

System_Zero
July 16th, 2006, 10:51 PM
Like you've contributed anything worth while to the topic yourself so you shouldn't be the one to talk. Like Badeballen said, if you don't like the thread just ignore it, don't spew shit all over the place.

That way other people can actually discuss the topic at hand instead of trolling over what IC has done in other threads. This is the right thread for the topic to take place so if you don't have anything useful to counter or contribute then just ignore the thread and just ignore it.

TravTech
July 16th, 2006, 10:57 PM
Umm... But I did. I expressed my opinion on the subject. That fact that he's no different than those he attempts to deride.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/R0G3R/ForumJunk_2/Signz/Hippo_crit.gif

System_Zero
July 16th, 2006, 11:02 PM
No you just expressed your opinion on IC. The topic isn't about how or what IC does but you drag it along and post cheap un-witty pictures rather than actually debate and get your point across.

TravTech
July 16th, 2006, 11:47 PM
Au contraire, when the thread starter creates the originating post in an inflammatory manner, he, his opinions, and the topic are all subject to scrutiny.


I give you 15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense.

ANd if you bothered to read the thread, you might notice I've been debating the validity of his position. :confused:



Are you like a goldfish? With a memory of 11 seconds? You seem to prefer to only take into consideration the last post or two, rather than the discussion in it's entirety.

The muffin man
July 16th, 2006, 11:50 PM
It's not valid to defend the standing ground which clearly belongs to science but has recently been encroached upon by religious groups who are overstepping the boundaries of their faiths?

EDIT: wtf trav, you seem to be arguing with yourself.

TravTech
July 16th, 2006, 11:52 PM
LOL This again?

Science has been attempting to disprove many aspects of religion for quite some time now. Or hadn't you noticed?

The muffin man
July 16th, 2006, 11:53 PM
Well if we each stayed within our own, we wouldn't have these problems, now would we?

You know my position: science and religion play different roles in society.

TravTech
July 16th, 2006, 11:54 PM
Why? Does science feel threatened all of a sudden?

P.S. From the prior page:


There is no difference, science has been just as well trying to disprove many different aspects of religion for eons. Now the geeks are getting their labcoats in a twist over creationism.

System_Zero
July 17th, 2006, 12:16 AM
Becuase science dosen't judge me or others and say I will go to hell. I don't give a rats ass about creationism. but the moment someone tries to pass it off as science is where the shit hits the fan.

The muffin man
July 17th, 2006, 12:42 AM
Why? Does science feel threatened all of a sudden?

No, trav, annoyed.

Inactive Cargo
July 17th, 2006, 12:48 AM
No, trav, annoyed.Ding Ding! Right on the money!

Schmoky
July 17th, 2006, 02:21 AM
IC:

Do you yell at people who still play their NES, saying "BUT THE GRAPHRFIX ON XBOAWKS IS BETAR OMG!" or "PLAY PC PLZ B/C ITS SMRATER!!!"? I'm assuming you don't. So why then, are you so dead-set on proving everyone's religion wrong?


Don't get me wrong, I agree with a lot of what you're saying, and I am an atheist, but what you're doing now, is like trying to convince some backwards southern hick KKK dude to not be racist. These views are imprinted into people, and no amount of arguing, or showing of fact, will change that.

If they're idiots, so be it. Let them?

.:FroznReign:.
July 17th, 2006, 02:52 AM
Well said. Very well said.

Inactive Cargo
July 17th, 2006, 03:28 AM
Do you yell at people who still play their NES, saying "BUT THE GRAPHRFIX ON XBOAWKS IS BETAR OMG!" or "PLAY PC PLZ B/C ITS SMRATER!!!"? I'm assuming you don't. So why then, are you so dead-set on proving everyone's religion wrong?Not everyone's religion, just the New Testament derived one. You know, the ones that just have this habit of holding science back just a teeny, weeny lot. How would you like to think we're living on a flat earth, in the center of the universe, the big bang isn't real (http://www.1337.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13339), right up there with other dead theories like evolution and gravity (because we know heavier objects fall faster, right?).

Schmoky
July 17th, 2006, 03:31 AM
Not everyone's religion, just the New Testament derived one. You know, the ones that just have this habit of holding science back just a teeny, weeny lot. How would you like to think we're living on a flat earth, in the center of the universe, the big bang isn't real (http://www.1337.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13339), right up there with other dead theories like evolution and gravity (because we know heavier objects fall faster, right?).


I don't see how religion is holding anything back. Scientists are still doing research; the priests or religous fanatics have nothing to do with scientific advancement.

The muffin man
July 17th, 2006, 03:34 AM
POP QUIZ: Did you know that the christian church prevented the spreading of Aristotle's book, The Method, which was later discovered, a few months ago, to be a guide to calculus invented 1800 years before Newton and Leibniz?

We'd be 1800 years farther into the future in mathematics.

.:FroznReign:.
July 17th, 2006, 03:37 AM
No. I can honestly say I did not know that.

The muffin man
July 17th, 2006, 03:40 AM
Yeah. SO apparently they stole all the books and printed them over with the new testament. Later they burned all of the copies except a few to remain in their vault. One escaped, however, and has been transcribed from the carbon remains of the original ink.

This was all over the news a few months ago. Pretty sad, if you ask me.

Inactive Cargo
July 17th, 2006, 03:50 AM
We'd be 1800 years farther into the future in mathematics.Well that'd mean we'd have superstring figured out by now and unlocking the secrets of the universe. But hey, it's only virtually unlimited power (to the human mind) that could put the Vatican out of a job, who'd want that?

EDIT: And can you source this? I'm looking around on Google and I can't find anything particularly relevant.

The muffin man
July 17th, 2006, 04:42 AM
Argh. I can't find anything, right now. I read it in scientific american, no less, so it's no hoax.

This book, anyway, simply bridged his other theories and syllogisms together and found a way to calculate the slopes of curves. He had invented a simple, unrefined version of differential calculus.

I'm going to keep on looking.

Microphotometrically
July 17th, 2006, 04:57 AM
You changed from "we" to "them". Ignoring that inconsitency:

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

And if you don't like what I have to say, don't read it ;)

Well aren't you cool, with your hippie ways of thinking.

"war is peace?" well then that would really defeat the purpose of having words and meanings if you're just going to scramble them around like a drunk old man with a lisp.:bad:

and I think I will stop reading your posts about religion. ;)

(now that I know)

Inactive Cargo
July 17th, 2006, 05:01 AM
Well aren't you cool, with your hippie ways of thinking.

"war is peace?" well then that would really defeat the purpose of having words and meanings if you're just going to scramble them around like a drunk old man with a lisp.:bad:

and I think I will stop reading your posts about religion. ;)

(now that I know)War is Peace, Feedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength? Might just be a reference to 1984 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteen_Eighty-Four). I reckon Lazz can fill you in on why it's a must-read.


The mysterious head of government is the omniscient, omnipotent, beloved Big Brother, or "B.B.", usually displayed on posters with the slogan "BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU". However, it is never quite clear whether Big Brother truly exists or not, or whether he is a fictitious leader created as a focus for the love of the Party which the Thought Police and others are there to engender

....

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
Each of these is of course either contradictory or the opposite of what we normally believe, and in 1984, the world is in a state of constant war, no one is free, and everyone is ignorant. The slogans are analysed in Goldstein's book. Though logically insensible, the slogans do embody the Party. For instance, through constant "war", the Party can keep domestic peace; when freedom is brought about, the people are enslaved to it, and the ignorance of the people is the strength of the Party. If (like Winston) anybody becomes too smart, they are whisked away for fear of rebellion. Through their constant repetition, the terms become meaningless, and the slogans become axiomatic. This type of misuse of language, and the deliberate self-deception with which the citizens are encouraged to accept it, is called doublethink.

One essential consequence of doublethink is that the Party can rewrite history with impunity, for "The Party is never wrong." The ultimate aim of the Party is, according to O'Brien, to gain and retain full power over all the people of Oceania; he sums this up with perhaps the most distressing prophecy of the entire novel: If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face ? for ever.Just replace "the party" with "the Vatican" and think of all the times the Vatican's stamped down on science. With regards to the first part, I think you can pick up where you can slot God in with the whole omnipotent, may or may not exist thing (then again, you didn't get the intertextual reference to 1984, so maybe you won't figure it out).

Microphotometrically
July 17th, 2006, 05:21 AM
Well no I did not understand the reference, but i don't see why the "party" has to be the vatican. Can't the party be everybody or anybody in a certain group?

Inactive Cargo
July 17th, 2006, 05:37 AM
Well no I did not understand the reference, but i don't see why the "party" has to be the vatican. Can't the party be everybody or anybody in a certain group?Easily, as long as that group is trying to gain total control of a certain area and has an omnipotent, may or may not exist being watching over them. In this case, it's the Vatican trying to take over the world with God watching over them.

Microphotometrically
July 17th, 2006, 05:39 AM
I see. I understand now, seriously. So the U.S. can be the party as well? They are somewhat invading a "holy" land, in belief God will save those who help protect "his" people.

The muffin man
July 17th, 2006, 06:09 AM
I think the whole idea of "chosen people" is utterly ridiculous and the whole world would be better of if they would stop thinking that they have some god-given right as the chosen people to holy lands, etc.

TravTech
July 17th, 2006, 09:06 AM
POP QUIZ: Did you know that the christian church prevented the spreading of Aristotle's book, The Method, which was later discovered, a few months ago, to be a guide to calculus invented 1800 years before Newton and Leibniz?

We'd be 1800 years farther into the future in mathematics.

Yes I knew that. But you conclusion is faulty.

Many great pieces of work, discoveries, and technologies have been lost or forgoten over the centuries due to war and nations / civilizations being conquered, and many other reasons besides just the church.

But there are too many variables involved in man's development and stability to definitively state how many years of mathematics we'd have gained or have been lost.

TravTech
July 17th, 2006, 09:14 AM
Becuase science dosen't judge me or others and say I will go to hell. I don't give a rats ass about creationism. but the moment someone tries to pass it off as science is where the shit hits the fan.

Funny, It seems we're being judged by these clowns like IC, Muffin, and their ilk.

The message I keep seeing here is something like:

Anyone who does not reject the foolishness of religion and accept science as having all the answers will suffer in eternal ignorance and is keeping mankind from realizing the nirvana of it's full technological potential.


Sounds pretty judgemental to me. Perhaps you haven't been paying attention.

Inactive Cargo
July 17th, 2006, 09:47 AM
Funny, It seems we're being judged by these clowns like IC, Muffin, and their ilk.

The message I keep seeing here is something like:

Anyone who does not reject the foolishness of religion and accept science as having all the answers will suffer in eternal ignorance and is keeping mankind from realizing the nirvana of it's full technological potential.

Sounds pretty judgemental to me. Perhaps you haven't been paying attention.Once you've seen the "Elephant", you know what you have seen. However, if you only have seen the "tail", or the "leg", etc. then you can only speculate. Once an evangelist and an agnostic were debating and getting no where, until the agnostic said to the evangelist, "The difference between us is that I'll settle for limiting myself to what I know, whereas you choose to fill in the gaps and desire to make more of something than what you have evidence for."

TravTech
July 17th, 2006, 10:49 AM
Ancient anecdotes?

What's that got to do with a couple of kids judging the majority of mankind throughout it's existance to be ignorant and stupid?

Also, are trying to say that science never speculates or extrapolates? (AKA filling gaps)


Please.

Inactive Cargo
July 17th, 2006, 10:54 AM
Also, are trying to say that science never speculates or extrapolates? (AKA filling gaps)It speculates all right, but it also attempts to validate those speculations, and when it can't, the speculations die. If the speculations are founded, then they can move on to become a theory, which, from the article, is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses."

And regarding less certanties:


"All sciences frequently rely on indirect evidence. Physicists cannot see subatomic particles directly, for instance, so they verify their existence by watching for telltale tracks that the particles leave in cloud chambers. The absence of direct observation does not make physicists' conclusions less certain."

TravTech
July 17th, 2006, 11:21 AM
And by basing one uncertain theory on another uncertain theory it attempts to "fill in the gaps". There's a big difference between "well substantiated" and "certain". Especailly when as I said before, one small discovery can be cause for a rewrite of half the shit we think we know.

We can go round and round on this again just like we did in your unproven "Proof there is no God" thread.

It all comes back to faith in one uncertainty is no more valid than faith in another. And in your crusade to show mankind just how ignorant they are and have been throughout history, you're no less obnoxious than a religious zealot attempting the same.

UnknownToa
July 17th, 2006, 02:33 PM
I simply don't think about religion, I think about whatever my mind drifts to.

Destagow
July 18th, 2006, 10:53 AM
TravTech, from reading past religious threads I have came to this...

IC is IF's opposite

Inactive Cargo
July 18th, 2006, 10:54 AM
IC is IF's oppositeIs that meant to be EmeraldFalcon?

Destagow
July 18th, 2006, 10:55 AM
Nope, Infact I bet you will find that to be an insult.

/edit Do not mean to though.

Inactive Cargo
July 18th, 2006, 11:17 AM
Well I can't think of who this "IF" is. Not a member, perhaps (http://www.1337.com/forums/memberlist.php?ltr=I&pp=0&sort=username&order=asc)?

Destagow
July 18th, 2006, 11:23 AM
http://www.1337.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5241 Read all of the first post.

System_Zero
July 18th, 2006, 04:15 PM
I think he means Liquid Fire. Where the fuck the I came from is beyond me.

Destagow
July 21st, 2006, 12:33 PM
Heh, typo.

System_Zero
July 22nd, 2006, 02:57 PM
Whats funny is I know a few Jehovah's Witness. And they think the whole Creationisim as absolute fact is a bunch of bull. They take cake it as a metaphore for the creation of the universe, not as an absolute fact.

Karthas
July 22nd, 2006, 03:08 PM
Great Wall of Text, Batman! That's way too much for my short attention span to handle, IC.

dylan
August 24th, 2006, 02:58 AM
I agree with evolution, although, as the post states, it still cannot describe how life first appeared.

We evolved from algae or something like that. And algae is just like mold or some shit.

EDIT: The pretty bunny pooped us out.

Inactive Cargo
August 24th, 2006, 06:37 AM
We evolved from algae or something like that. And algae is just like mold or some shit.Algae is life, what he is referring to is the origin of organic cells, and then life. We've gotten to the stage of organic cells in the lab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-Urey_experiment), but not life quite yet.

There's also some relevant reading over on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_life).

System_Zero
August 30th, 2006, 04:05 AM
Good to see this topic hasn't died out yet.

Algae is life, however we did not come from the Algae that we know of today. Life forms similar to Algae but different. It’s like saying we evolved from monkeys. We didn’t evolve from monkeys; we shared a common ancestor at one point before both groups branched off into different species. Just because we’re related to chimps does not mean we came from chimps.

The muffin man
August 30th, 2006, 04:21 AM
Good to see this topic hasn't died out yet.

Algae is life, however we did not come from the Algae that we know of today. Life forms similar to Algae but different. It’s like saying we evolved from monkeys. We didn’t evolve from monkeys; we shared a common ancestor at one point before both groups branched off into different species. Just because we’re related to chimps does not mean we came from chimps.

QTF.

I hear an argument from a lot of people that say "How could we possibly have evolved from monkeys? Pssh." It sickens me. =.=

Inactive Cargo
August 30th, 2006, 08:44 AM
I hear an argument from a lot of people that say "How could we possibly have evolved from monkeys? Pssh." It sickens me. =.=Well it's #6 on 15 Answers to Creationist Nonsense.

Nuns With Guns
September 17th, 2006, 08:06 AM
Atheists blow it WAY out of proportion when they try and critisise mere subsections of Christianity.

Hmm, perhaps this ' blowing out of proportion' is merely a backlash from years of religious oppression and ignorance? Humanity has had itself controled and exploited by religion for thousands of years. Man created god in his image.. A blueprint for Politicians' 'Warm Fuzzies', 'God" acted as a source of power and justifiaction for those in control.. ( Osama anyone? )

However, back to evolution.

My personal belief is that the theory of evolution is correct, as I have yet to see any feasible proof that Creationism is a scienetifically proveable theory.

To embrace Creationism and therefore God, would, to me, be a surrender to the most bloody and cruel regieme in history.

Inactive Cargo
September 19th, 2006, 03:13 AM
I like this guy.